Sculptor Loose @ Muir!

[Saxman]

You people are just silly. If I had the money, I would buy a cliff and put in a fucking ski lift. I wouldn't mind if I only have to walk 5 feet from chair to route. If I fucking want to bushwhack, there are a few hundred miles of cliff in the region I can go to. IF you want a challenge, park 10 miles away and hike in with no water.

[Shamis]

I do it because it represents FREEDOM, and it is really really fun. At this point in this rad thread, I think my bro' buster is really talking about the FREEDOM part. Fact is climbers do not like being told what to do. Alot of us are rebels, and this shouldn't come as a surprise considering the nature of the sport. The disneyland comment probably has more to do with the controlled environment, the significant set of rules, and the micro managed style of the place; and less to do with the quality of the routes (many of which are very nice - including two or three I really want to do if we aren't banned by the end of this). And maybe, just maybe, someone should toss the LOM/POP a little shit (which none of you scared ass punks are really willing to do). That said, POP has the freedom to do exactly as he wishes and I have the freedom to choose how I feel about this, how to act on it, and how to deal with the consequences. And you other posters have the freedom to be wank ass pussies or not.

If your goal is FREEDOM...then prehaps you should be more supportive of the rules they have made to try to limit their liability as land owners. Without any vigilence they would more than likely be the victims of some sort of lawsuit sooner or later, which would most likely result in the closing of the land all together.

Most climbers probably have difficulty empathizing, but people with a lot of money, as the webers appear to have, must take steps to preserve their assets. A climber who's networth is 10k doesn't have a whole lot to lose in comparison.

I don't think any of us support the manufacturing of routes via chipping. But there is a lot of grey area that is acceptable most places. If you're really concerned with leaving no trace, then you wouldn't climb in the first place, so I think the only real rule for climbers with regards to chipping is that we shouldn't try to make a climb easier just because we are weak.

Even if Rick is guilty of chipping a hold, I'm willing to bet it was just to make it less sharp, not to make the route easier. Perhaps a little lame, but I wouldn't hold it against him since the accusations are super vague anyway. Besides, he's just doing whatatever it takes to protect his assets without having to restrict access.

But at the end of the day, what are you gonna do if he is chipping holds? We as a climbing community could boycott muir valley, but I don't really see how that would hurt him, unless you think that he thrives on the power of running a large recreational area free of charge...which I guess is possible, but it would still hurt us more than it would hurt them.

I'm willing to bet that the original poster is a dog lover and a bolter who for some reason can't get a bolting pass at muir valley, and that is the real reason for his post.

Dogs should be allowed to run wild at the crag, and climbers should be allowed to carry tazers, but since that isn't the case, I'm not too upset by their latest decree.

Also, how are you enjoying the FREEDOM of climbing at torrent falls?

[pigsteak]

dick.

[Shamis]

dick.

[rhunt]

I got to say it...

Roadside, torrent, all of the southern region including the motherlode and pocket wall (before it was bought and closed) are all on private land. None of the people who own those crags have strict rules in order to limit their liability. Pocket wall is closed because the state park bought it, Torrent is not closed just not open to the general public because most people can't follow rules. It could be said that having many rules and mico managing your land opens you up to more liability.

[Shamis]

That's possible rhunt. I don't know what the legal history is like with regards to land owners being sued. It would be nice of somebody with some real facts regarding that could post information or links here.

[rhunt]

Well I have been climbing in KY for over 10 years and I am about 99.9% sure no land owners have been sued over a climbing accident. Ky law protects the land owner unless he or she charges money for people to climb on their land. Which is why we have some many crags on private land. Imagine the cost if private land owner had to get insurance for us to climb on their property.

[Shamis]

Well I have been climbing in KY for over 10 years and I am about 99.9% sure no land owners have been sued over a climbing accident. Ky law protects the land owner unless he or she charges money for people to climb on their land. Which is why we have some many crags on private land. Imagine the cost if private land owner had to get insurance for us to climb on their property.

Where are all the lawyers on these forums? Inquiring minds want to know more.

Is this type of law common in many states? It seems like most states have lots of paranoid land owners when it comes to climbing, is it all just paranoia? Or have a lot of people been legitimately screwed by people getting injured on their land?

[Toad]

Gahhhh Damn. This ain't most places. This is the friggin' Red River Gorge. Land of nerd gates, as few bolts as possible on a route, etc. And iffin' you ain't fallen or at least just about to fall at the anchors, then you are on the wrong route. Anyone who has come close to altering or adding a hold in the past has been ostracized by their climbing peers - no matter who they were. The chipper would at least had to offer up a damn good explanation for their actions to get a pass - no matter who they were. The Gorge has a place in the world. Have some pride!

Chippin' holds. Cripes. What's next? Find a shitty, seeping wall to cover in PC11 so you can mold your own holds into it? Maybe even create a big dong shaped hold so you have some place to sit and rest before moving into the crux you've created that was too hard until you carved a few more holds so you could send it safely? Cripes.

[Pru]

So who else got banned from Muir as a result of this thread? Weber just banned me, after he started in on me with the nasty PMs and I responded in kind. So predictable. For the record, I've never once broken a rule in Muir, as complicated as that is becoming these days.

Those of you who are still in Weber's good graces better be careful what you say, and stock up on those knee pads and mouth wash!

BTW, I'm not complaining about being banned, just sharing what I believe is the act of a man who is generous, yes, but also very petty and small. I haven't climbed in Muir in well over a year by my choice. Muir is beautiful and I'm genuinely glad so many people enjoy it--especially since it keeps the crowds down in other places--but I don't miss it one bit.

[Toad]

Wow. Excommunicated.

[Horatio Felacio]

who else votes this as best thread in months!?

[mcrib]

me.

[Zspider]

Pru wrote:

uh, so chipping is okay if a landowner does it?

************
Yup.

ZSpiddy

[Saxman]

Woohoo, one less person. Keep it up Rick.