POTENTIAL CLOSURE OF TORRENT FALLS CRAG

[kneebar]

Thanks Mark for making it perfectly clear. Some climbers don't get the point unless the word "closure" happens to be mentioned. So for all you "climbers" that didn't donate in the past its time to step up and toss the cash in. Pay your dues, otherwise you are just a thief!

[squeezindlemmon]

Mark and Kathy, you guys rock! Thanks for the privilege of climbing in your property. We are truly blessed.

i've forwarded it on to miami university (a lot of gumbies head down from there)...

I will forward the info to the Purdue crowd.

[Artsay]

I think it's important to point out that RRG climbers have frequently stepped up and done great things when asked to (Muir Valley trail day turn outs, the PMRP fundraiser...). I don't disagree with anything Mark and Kathy are suffering with but I do wish that these issues were made known *before* this breaking point was hit. This kind of reminds me of the PMRP issue. No one knew there was a problem but, once it was made known, great things have been accomplished.

I have no doubt in my mind that if folks knew what was going on, it wouldn't have come to this. Everyone who knows the Meyer's have a HUGE respect for them. The problem is with those that don't. I know it shouldn't be Mark and Kathy's responsibility to lay out the rules and give reminders but rules are important for communicating expectations and setting boundaries. If the climbing community had known their rules, expectations, and/or current frustrations, I have no doubt that more people would've showed up on Saturday to show their support.

I'm really sorry for Mark and Kathy. They're good people. I've been climbing at Torrent for years and am only aware of a few of the newly posted rules but I will strictly follow them all from now on.

On the flip side, I'm happy that the work done on Saturday exceeded Mark's expectations. At least there is something good that came from the trail day.

[Sunshine]

I was going to close the crag until I brought the subject up to the RRGCC board members. Fortunately, they had their board meeting at Torrent this past weekend. Upon their recommendation, I am keeping the crag open until the enclosed rules are met. But if these rules are not strictly r
[/b]

I find this statement of fact by Mark to be of great importance. I was there, I, along with other reasonable people, told him what we would do. Shut it down. As mentioned earlier, closures or the threat of closure appears to be the sure fire way to bring proper attention to these pressing issues! We were lucky. Cooler heads prevailed!
So, we have a second chance now, for the third or four time. Only the Meyers know. Thanks to bob and the rest of the board of the RRGCC and Mark and Cathy, you guys know how I feel about you.

Terry

[charlie]

I knew this had become an issue as of Saturday. Today is Tuesday. Sorry if it took this long to say something but I was working on trails both Saturday and Sunday.

If the climbing community had known their rules, expectations, and/or current frustrations, I have no doubt that more people would've showed up on Saturday to show their support.

Leash laws are posted and the donation box is all of about 2 feet from the freaking trailhead. Sorry if it's not neon and flashing but I guess we assumed most of the climbers were smart enough to actually think it might apply to them. Lack of education about these rules is an invalid excuse.

I understand there are certain issues that education and signs could help with but do we have to post signs for people to not leave trash, not move other people's property, and treat the landowners and people you meet on private property with respect? Apparently I have been giving people way too much credit, I'll drop all my other projects and start rolling with the RRGCC Babysitting Committee as it seems that should be the most pressing priority for the BOD these days.

[busty]

I understand there are certain issues that education and signs could help with but do we have to post signs for people to not leave trash, not move other people's property, and treat the landowners and people you meet on private property with respect?

Unfortunately, the answer to this is probably "yes". People do seem to need reminding of standards of behavior that should be obvious. I guess that's one of the same reasons that we have speed limit signs posted every so often along roads .

[Artsay]

Peope see what they want to see. Some read signs, others don't. Ignorance is bliss and many climbers choose to be uninformed. My point is that if people are educated about the problem, then folks will understand the severity of the situation and can take an aggressive role in informing others when rules are broken. I know Terry is excellent at doing this but I don't know how many others take on this responsibility.

Call me a dreamer...I see the good in people. Kinda like how there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. I don't believe that climbers are intentionally bad, they just don't always see the writing on the wall.

[Guest]

I love you, Charlie.

Mark, I wouldn't blame you for shutting down the cliff. I hope it doesn't come to that, but you and your family and your business are far more important than a selfish bunch of dirt bags.

Climbers better start policing each other better...

[Torrent Falls]

Thanks for all the kind words. You have my permission to post this notice wherever you like. One more addition.

Do not swarm the Crag. No more than 6 climbers to a climbing group.

Thanks again for your cooperation,
Mark Meyer

[rhunt]

Apparently I have been giving people way too much credit, I'll drop all my other projects and start rolling with the RRGCC Babysitting Committee as it seems that should be the most pressing priority for the BOD these days.

[Lateralus]

Mark,
You really must be a Saint to have allowed climbing to stay open as long as you have on your property. I thank you for having way more patience and good-will than I can imagine. It's really too bad that you have to demand people to be decent when they are using your private land. Thanks for being such kind good hearted folks

[Paul3eb]

Leash laws are posted and the donation box is all of about 2 feet from the freaking trailhead. Sorry if it's not neon and flashing but I guess we assumed most of the climbers were smart enough to actually think it might apply to them. Lack of education about these rules is an invalid excuse.

charlie, education is the only people know about some of them. again, i've stopped at the donation box before and didn't think it was real. i saw it and thought (and recall being told) that it was old and not used any more. it was a while ago but all i remember seeing on it was a porter guide to the area. i don't doubt that, now, there's information about the leash law and such. but being a normal climber at the red, what's to be expected? most of the land we climb on has no fee and, essentially, no rules outside of common sense. unless you tell people the case is otherwise, they're not going to know. several of the rules i wasn't aware of until yesterday and aren't exactly common sense. it's more about communication than babysitting. i agree, many of the rules are common sense and common courtesy.. but some aren't. there's only one crag in the red that asks for donations at the crag.. and the donation box is old, gray, and has chickenwire covering parts of it.

that said, if the problem is getting the word out, fix it. kipp trummel and i are, awaiting mark's permission, donating everything needed to making people aware of any rules or requests. if you guys want paper brochures or signs or whatever, they may not be the prettiest things in the world but i'll make them and foot the bill.

[Sunshine]

I almost positive that I read in Mark's post above that he gives his permission to use his posted statement for any use that you see fit. Is that what you are talking about Paul? I hope it's something else.

[Paul3eb]

no, i mean i want to make sure he's alright with us making an entirely new box/kiosk to place by the enterance.

and another thing, thanks to the coalition for mediating on saturday. let's not forget that if they hadn't stepped in, we'd be talking about what we need to do to reopen torrent rather than keep it open..

[charlie]

Sandra, love you too babe.

EDITED -- This post came from Charlie at a point of stressed out frustration, not from the RRGCC. I intended to use Paul's example as a means to demonstrate how much of a challenge this communication game is when even the most valuable and responsible members of this community could be misinformed. I was at a loss in understanding why people didn't donate because I always considered it both the rule of thumb and an example of the good manners you would take to anyone's house as a guest. I didn't mean to come off like such an ass, sorry everyone.

...until last fall when i saw the lovely miss wheatley drop a ten spot into the box, i thought that the donation things was long since dead. had she not done that and i not been there i probably still wouldn't know to drop money in there.

You know I love you to death Paul but come on. This donation box just seemed to be an archeological relic? The fact that you of all people, a climber I consider to be well above the average in intelligence and responsibility can miss it than what can we do? Education by signs clearly isn't going to fix anything, especially when no one reads the signs.

Everyone needs to stop looking to the BOD to handle all issues that come up because we quite simply have our hands full. Volunteer your time to each other and converse. We don't have to manage the communication between everyone and clearly signs and phamplets aren't going to work. Posting them is a minimum requirement but really those in the know are just going to have to proselytize. Would it be that hard to get beta on a great 11b slab? Ask the question anywhere in the Red and you'll get 50 fuckers trying to offer you advice. Talk to each other and start policing yourselves about more than just that last move on whatever climb that was and these kinds of issues would resolve themselves.

Climbers didn't used to have so much trouble understanding the rules of engagement. I don't know what has changed or what I can do to correct it but I admit I'm troubled. When I compare us to paddlers, hikers, and bikers I get more and more ashamed at how selfish and irresponsible our culture has become.