The Castle Has Fallen

This route is located in the Southern Region at Purgatory

Paradise Regained

2 votes

Paradise Lost 5.13a (Sport) *****

First Ascent: Kenny Barker in 2004
Length: 65ft
Bolts: 6 (report bad bolts/anchors)

Click for more images
This line is destined to become a classic. Move right from The Castle Has Fallen to take on the striking overhanging arete. Begin climbing the seam then traverse right past small pockets to gain a large ledge rest. When recovered, launch up the overhanging arete through big moves on small edges to a heart breaker crux just before reaching the final jugs.
The route was originally climbed without using the ledge after the initial traverse and given a grade of 5.13b.
Moves: Bouldery
Descent: Chains
Stays Dry: Downpour
Owner: RRGCC
arete (2) beautiful (1) pumpy (1) bouldery (1)
Add / Edit Tags

Route Spray
Show Project
Quality Consensus

4.89 stars (35 votes)
Grade Consensus
5.13b (31 votes)

You must login to save your input!
+ add
+ add



Sorry, no pictures to be had. {want to add a photo?}


allah said on July 25th, 2005
Down climbing to the huge Ledges will make the route no harder than 12d. So if you are one of those number chasing kind of people that would like to have the 13b rating on thier tick list then I would suggest not using the ledge.
Anonymous said on October 16th, 2005
Why the hell didn't you rate it 5.12d then? Do you think other climbers will be as stupid as you and pass up a huge obvious rest? I wonder what a real climber like Sharma or Caldwell would think if you told them not to use the huge rest? They would think "Stupid fucking Kentucky Hillbillies".
allah said on October 18th, 2005
ok make the 15 ft of climbing off route to the ledge then, and if you hav e any kind of problem the with me or the way i do things step up and say somthing to me cause right now i would love to slice your throat fucker, dont hide behind an annomous name you little chicken fucker.
Anonymous said on November 2nd, 2005
purgatory is a beautiful spot whether you climbing 15 ft. off route or not.
Power2U said on April 11th, 2006
Awesome! This line and it's two relativs to the left are beautiful additons to the Red River Gorge's already stellar collection of climbs. Good work Kenny.
512OW said on June 14th, 2006
Actually, a "real" climber like Peter Croft once put up a 13b/c on the Rostrum in Yosemite....but its only 13b/c if you skip the ledge 2 feet to the left halfway up the crux pitch...... So you forgot to add "Stupid fuckin Canadian Crackmasters respected the world over"......
Stewy911 said on June 14th, 2006
IF its on the climb and you feel like using it use it.
Anonymous said on July 31st, 2006
yo allah - don't let ppl climbing off over to that ledge rain on your parade. you found one of the most fantastic lines in the red and part of that line is climbing up that arete, when you reach it. just because you can safely down climb to a ledge doesnt mean it's part of the line. Look at the picture posted by climberdude99. the line of weakness clearly moves up and right, culminating with that arete. THE LEDGE IS WAY THE HELL BELOW WHERE THE TRAVERSE JOINS THE ARETE. if you want to use the ledge, talk to allah about putting up a "paradise lost direct." until then, i'd recommend just following the line.
SCIN said on July 31st, 2006
People from out of town who don't know anything about the route are stepping off to the right to take the ledge rest. Approaching the route from a non-local perspective I'm thinking that I would probably step out right as well. The European I saw step out right looked very relaxed and comfortable in doing so. It was only two moves for him.
Anonymous said on July 31st, 2006
i can get to the jug on buff the wood from the jug on stain and rest better in just one move, casually. i guess that makes it on route.
allah said on August 1st, 2006
SCIN said on August 3rd, 2006
The only way you'll prevent non-locals from not stepping out right is dynamite or a sign saying that it isn't .13b if you step out right. I do think it would lower the grade of the line since trying to recover on the jug without going out right is pretty uncomfortable because the feet kind of suck there. I wish there was a ledge out right on Dracula.
SCIN said on August 3rd, 2006
Oh yea......and regardless of resting on the ledge or resting on the jug it's a classic line with killer movement. Personally I don't step out right to the ledge because the line was originally done by Kenny without the ledge.
allah said on August 5th, 2006
I wished there was somthing to even kinda shake on Dracula
ray said on December 25th, 2007
Did it with the ledge. Ignore what that guy who hijacked my account said on August 3rd 2006 above.
allah said on December 25th, 2007
Sell out!
pigsteak said on December 26th, 2007
weak sauce ray......taking the lazy man's way out. just means you can't put it on your tick list until you do it the proper way. or at least only give yourself 12d credit for it....either way, congrats.
maxclimb11 said on April 24th, 2008
really great movement. the hds are still pretty sharp though
allah said on April 24th, 2008
you should have got on it 4 years ago when there was no chulk, its no where near as sharp as it was. :)
Anonymous said on April 28th, 2008
Thanks again Kenny. I don't care what all the "people" say about you. You are "cool" in my book. Keep the faith and ignore the haters. I dedicate this send and all future sends to my new sponsor, Thanks lordcaffeine for all the great gear and great discounts on travel.
ashtray said on April 28th, 2008
that was me. damned wireless dropped out.
maxclimb11 said on August 10th, 2008
amazing route!!! i dont see how the ledge is off route i mean tall people can use it as a foot + eliminate routes are dumb and id rather not have bullshit like this at the red. a great route either way.
Horatio Felacio said on March 30th, 2009
unfortunately i now agree that NOT using the ledge is retarded. it's right there. regardless, it's still one of the best .13a's in the southeast.
mike_anderson said on May 8th, 2009
Really awesome route; I enjoyed falling off of it over and over again. I chose not to use the ledge b/c I need to learn how to recover on big jugs w/ bad feet. I think the route has more continuity w/o the ledge, which breaks it up too much. I wouldn't blame someone for using it, though. To each, their own. One Saturday in April there were 6-8 people gangbanging this thing, and nobody was using the ledge, so people seem to know.
pigsteak said on May 8th, 2009
seem to know what? that not taking obvious rests is silly?
SCIN said on May 8th, 2009
I think the huge misconception here is that if you don't use the ledge then you don't get a rest. Actually not using the ledge still gives you full recovery especially if you're taller and can reach the better feet. You can either use the no hands rest or use the gigantic jug rest. I'd argue that using the ledge doesn't give you any more recovery (especially the average Red River climber who can usually fully recover on a jug) than the gigantic jug rest does. Definitely not a full letter grade's worth of recovery. It would be different if the alternative to the ledge was some small crimps or something.
mike_anderson said on May 9th, 2009
I think there is a difference because you could sit on the ledge for hours, if you were stubborn enough, but that wouldn't work on the jug. I don't know (quantitatively) what the difference is though...seems like you would have to climb the route both ways to know. When I first started working the route, it would have been much easier for me to sit on the ledge, but in the process, I got to a point where I could get really good recovery off the jug. So...yeah, it depends on the climber. That said, do whatever you want, it doesn't matter to me.
SCIN said on May 9th, 2009
It's fine to not use the ledge but I don't think it's worthy of, for example, mentioning on that you (not "you" directly Mike) didn't use the ledge. That's about as stupid as bragging about doing a route without using a knee-bar that everyone else uses. I mean, if you want to do a 13b without a rest then do Cutthroat or if you want to do a route that's harder without an obvious knee bar then do a route of the same grade without an obvious knee bar. It just seems lame to brag about skipping obvious rests.
allah said on May 11th, 2009
RAY, I thought we already talked about this route being 13a now. compare this to most other 13b's, get on Dracula and tell me they are the same grade. Its still an awesome route though (not as good as dracula though)
SCIN said on May 11th, 2009
Yea, compared to Dracula it is soft.....about 12d. You are correct.
allah said on May 12th, 2009
in the new edition the route should be 13a, I was not using my head when I bolted this and climbed it. I should have thought about what everyone else would do and i didn't. This route doesn't compare to most 13b's so downgrade it in the book and leave it at that.
512OW said on May 12th, 2009
I checked 8a. 37 people took it as 13b on their card. 0 people as 13a. One (Jimmy Webb) called it 13a in his comment. Jimmy knowing 13a from b is like me knowing 8 from 8+. Only 4 or 5 called it "soft". 6 people on here have called it 13b. My take is this... there have to be soft and hard routes of every grade, or each grade becomes too specific. The word "soft" for some reason has gotten this negative connotation. Not sure why. Egos, I think. I haven't been on it in ages, but this one felt borderline. Call it what you want. 27 stars regardless of the difficulty.
SCIN said on May 12th, 2009
Changed it to 13a. So now instead of a soft 13b it's a hard 13a. I guess it keeps the theme of Kenny's routes (hard for the grade).
mike_anderson said on May 14th, 2009
I don't think it's a big deal to have a note in the book that says "13b if you don't use the ledge". Darkness at Noon is one of the world's all time greatest sport routes (first 5.13 sport route at Smith Rock...amazing 35m pitch). It climbs right next to the arete that forms Chain Reaction and at one point high on the route you can stand on a hold on the arete, giving a virtual no hands rest right when the pump is hitting...cuts a stiff 13a down to 12d. As ridiculous as it may sound, the beta is "it's OK to put your hand on the arete, but not your feet." I don't know where you're getting your data points (I assume you know much more than I) but from what I saw while working the route, the vast majority of folks were not using the ledge. So if you're going to downright it, you ought to explain why.
Andrew said on May 14th, 2009
I have said it a million times... My feet are on that ledge when I am on the jug, so how is it off route. Do I have to jack my feet up into an awkward stance becuase I am tall enough to stand on something that is supposed to be off, just to raise the grade on something. This is some hokey garbage. We don't do eliminates at the red and calling the ledge off, is an eliminate. Everyone I know uses the ledge, and 13a sounds right.
mike_anderson said on May 14th, 2009 your point about "mentioning whether or not you use the rest" is worthy of mentioning because the first ascentionist didn't use it, and thus the route was established (and graded) without it. Anything that significantly changes the difficulty should be specified. If you free the Nose on El Cap, people will want to know if you climb the "original" Changing Corners pitch, or the new 5.13 variation around it. More history: Anti Phil at Rifle (perhaps the best sport route in the hole state) has a chipped hold right at the crux. The beta: 13b if you use the chipped hold, 13b/c without it.
mike_anderson said on May 14th, 2009
You may have said it a million times, but not to me. I don't care how you climb the route, I just care how you spray about it. Do whatever you want, but be honest about what you did. If you're going to downrate it (which is fine with me, I don't care), you should make it clear why...otherwise, poor Kenny could get a reputation as a shameless grade-inflater (yeah, right!)
Andrew said on May 14th, 2009
Mike, this ain't out west. We have to much rock to pull eliminate, five variations, traversing, rule infested bullshit.
SCIN said on May 14th, 2009
If everyone you've seen do it used the ledge then you must have been there on lobotomy day.
Green3 said on May 15th, 2009
Wait... Ray, you used the ledge, now you're against it? And it's 13a either way? BTW, this thread is better than the forum.
allah said on May 15th, 2009
I feel like a grade inflater, everything Ive established i feel should be a letter grade or two easier. But i went with what would make everyone happy and feel good about them selves :)
SCIN said on May 15th, 2009
Oops, I mean to say if everyone was NOT using the ledge they must have had lobotomies. Oh well. Sure Mike, I'll put a note in the guide on why it was downgraded.
woman said on September 20th, 2009
Well, this thread entertained me for a while. So...did it get downgraded because Andrew sent it?
Andrew said on September 20th, 2009
Everything I send gets down graded. People should no this when picking climbs to send.
512OW said on September 25th, 2009
No, it was downgraded because we erroneously give grading precedence to whiney first ascentionists instead of community consensus.
said on November 29th, 2009
what an amazing line!!!!! 20 stars on a 5 star system....its way above my head now but i love it....thanks kenny for putting it up!!!!!
Anonymous said on March 15th, 2012
I walked into Purgatory about a month ago to find Dave Graham effortlessly crushing everything at the crag. I watched the man do all the 13B's, Paradise Lost included. He used the no hands and said it was still a 13B, just a bit soft. I dont see what the problem is using it. It really isnt "15 feet off route" it is directly under the line of bolts up the face. Also I can reach the rest with my hand still on the jug. That Ledge is on.
allah said on March 16th, 2012
If the second Pitch is 13b how can the first one be the same grade, somethings gotta give right? So the First Pitch is downgraded!
stix said on March 16th, 2012
it sucks not being able to go to purgatory and climb on dracula (a better route with fewer bullshit contrivances) without hearing a bunch of pussies in prana argue over the grade of the route they can't do. usually some larry trying to rationalize how PL has to be harder than assigned grade b/c its harder than 13a's they may or may not have done which usually clock in right around the 12c/d grade (hoofmaker, original table, spank, taste the rainbow, 50 bucks). that post about dave climbing at purgatory was the lamest shit i've ever read related to climbing and i hope "anonymous" gets a nasty rash from having daves cock so far up is ass. dave could not give two fucks what the grade of that pitch is and probably hates you for stealing a little bit of the soul of something he loves even more than i do.
Anonymous said on March 16th, 2012
pigsteak said on March 18th, 2012
hey stix, doesnt dave keep an score card...not so much for 'soul" and more about sponsorships...let's not pretend it is something it's not....
climb2core said on April 15th, 2014
Worn carabiners replaced with new steel ovals 4/12/14.
Anonymous said on October 31st, 2014
5th bolt looking pretty rusty/spinny/shitty. I don't have the proper skills or the tools to replace it, be happy to pay for the hardware. 8023593536
Bgsand01 said on September 24th, 2018
The last bolt on this is super loose, I didn’t have a wrench to tighten it, but it moved in and out w my hand, the bolt under it is spinning, this thing needs some glue in love:-)
jkpugel said on September 26th, 2018
I don’t have a drill but I’d be happy to volunteer my time and money to pay for bolts and epoxy if there’s someone out there who’s experienced with rebolting.
climb2core said on September 26th, 2018
Kenny should do it. I’ll message him. Fgi can cover the hardware. Please just continue to support the fundraisers.
Bgsand01 said on October 17th, 2018
I will gladly put new hardware or glue ins on this route if I can get the gear from the fixed gear initiative, and it’s ok w the route developer. I’ll be down this weeekend and I can replace everything.
climb2core said on October 17th, 2018
Bgsand01, shoot me a message at [email protected] and we can figure it out... thx. Ian