COVID-19 Climbing Guidelines: The Red River Gorge in the Daniel Boone National Forest, Muir Valley, and all RRGCC-owned property - which includes Miller Fork Recreational Preserve, Bald Rock Recreational Preserve, and Pendergrass-Murray Recreational Preserve - request that you follow the guidelines outlined on each website if you choose to climb during this time. See links above for more details about each climbing area.

Blame Canada

This route is located in the Southern Region at South Park

Cow Days


14.
+0
0 votes

Hippie Core Drill Machine 5.12a (Sport) ***

First Ascent: Ralph Woolard, Jordan Katz, Ian Kirk in 2019
Length: 80ft
Bolts: 9 (report bad bolts/anchors)

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Start on an uncannily sturdy cheater pile and reach high to a couple of crimps. Establish yourself on the wall and make a difficult mantle to a stance on a ledge. Clip the bolt on the your left and remove your first draw to substantially reduce rope drag. Climb past some diagonal rails and tech your way to a stance before firing into pockets which improve to jugs as you continue up. Find the amazing handle bar grips at the top and finish it up. This is just right of the cave proper.
Moves: unknown
Descent: Chains
Stays Dry: Downpour
Owner: Private
Steepness:

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4 stars (12 votes)
Grade Consensus
5.12a (7 votes)

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Submitted by: Raiden
Date: Sep 21st, 2020

Submitted by: Raiden
Date: Sep 21st, 2020

Submitted by: climb2core
Date: Feb 11th, 2020

Comments

1
Cromper said on July 5th, 2020
Be sure to just clip the funky first bolt and not stick only the second. If you fall on the initial mantle your rope cheese grades on the edge of the roof and you’ll get a nasty core shot. Great climbing after the first funky mantle.
2
Anonymous said on July 12th, 2020
Sketch, corny cheater stack start. Dirty, dusty first half, fallowed by by crumbling shit pile last half, plus it’s more like 5.11.
3
mario_tarrecuccni said on July 12th, 2020
But it gets six votes for 5 stars...how could that be???
4
Anonymous said on October 7th, 2020
Blatantly manufactured.
5
Anonymous said on October 7th, 2020
So is like every route in Wyoming. Who gives af?
6
Anonymous said on October 7th, 2020
Ian Kirk is manufacturing routes in The Red now??
7
Anonymous said on October 10th, 2020
Looked like a great route. Unfortunately it has at least 2 (probably 3) drilled pockets.
8
AidClimber said on October 13th, 2020
So is this rig chipped or wut
9
climb2core said on October 13th, 2020
Anyone that wants more info on the route.. please feel free to contact me. Ian
10
Anonymous said on October 13th, 2020
So yes.
11
Anonymous said on October 13th, 2020
Half the routes in Wyoming are closed too. Someone might give af about that.
12
Anonymous said on October 13th, 2020
Id like more information on the route Ian. Are there drilled and manufactured holds?
13
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
Ian Kirk is now blatantly manufacturing routes in the Red. What a fucking idiot. There are endless routes to bolt in The Red that don't require manufactured holds. This routes should be chopped. Better yet, someone needs to jug the first three bolts with a glue gun and fill in that bullshit.
14
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
FGI ---> Fake Grips Initiative
15
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
If you chop it, though, you have to chop Golden Touch and Thug Life too. Just as a start. I'd like to see how that goes for you.
16
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
And Paranoia, and Psychopathy, and Generic Manufacturer. Then might as well go take care of Just Do It and The Nose. https://rockandice.com/features/making-the-grade/
17
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
The dim bulbs that comment around here don't have the capacity to understand Bill's arguments, which are unequivocally correct.
18
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
"Reason 4: This is a Slippery Slope; Any Acceptance of Manufacturing Will Lead to Abuses." Wyoming shows without a doubt that abuses happen.
19
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
Bill's arguments also could be use to support dry-tooling every route in the madness cave.
20
Steezmcgee said on October 14th, 2020
Ian you can do keep that pocket drilling and hold manufacturing on those Ohio walls, there is no need for that in the Red.
21
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
When you have to drill MULTIPLE pockets to make a .12a go, you are in a sorry mess of shit. It is more understandable to make .13d go. But if you are out the chiselling and drilling and gluing and forcing .12a, you can go fuck yourself. Why don't you try putting all that effort in finding endless other .12a in the Red? I personally know of countless untold crags that are begging for bolts that are currently unbolted. Ian made his choice and now everyone knows. I remember when Dario drilled a pocket. It haunted him until he went back and filled it in. Drilling pockets is very much like committing murder. That shit will haunt you and follow you forever. The choice is yours. Now you have to live with it.
22
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
Minus a star for every manufactured hold.
23
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
You would have to be a dim bulb to use Bill's article to justify this bullshit. But sure whatever- chop them all.
24
Rx2Climb said on October 14th, 2020
Better chop Table of Colors too. Just to be safe = )
25
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
Ian, Based on the way public opinion and land management is going elsewhere with respect to manufacturing holds and on this forum, it's probably a good time to make a public statement apologizing for your actions and to admonish drilling pockets. This cannot become an accepted approach. Drilling a 12a is hard to understand in the red with so much rock around. Please take action before this blows up, generating even more attention for the red, and becomes a climbing magazine article (maybe too late). Thanks
26
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
Just post a statement/solution here...doesn't have to be a social media circus sort of thing
27
Anonymous said on October 14th, 2020
Just because Thug Life and a couple others have chipped holds is hardly community consensus that this is OK. At best, chipping new holds will lead to a Wyoming sized climber war.
28
Steezmcgee said on October 14th, 2020
Should have named it "Ian's pocket drilling machine"
29
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
Admin can you please change the name/description: "Hippie Core Drilled Pocket Machine" "... and tech your way to a stance before firing into a pair of (wet) one-pad four finger pockets, followed by a third smaller half-pad drilled pocket which improve to jugs."
30
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
Climbing magazine article lol. Man no one gives a shit except for like 3 or 4 of you Ian-obsessed folks. Just step away from the internet and I promise you'll feel better. No one is going to drill pockets all over the Lode or Drive By. Your precious classics are safe.
31
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
that's like saying no one is going to grid bolt drive-by. i believed that once upon a time.
32
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
Since we're posting articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_climbing Royal Robbins is sooo proud of Bill Ramsey. /s
33
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
"Glueie" Anderson got Ten Sleep shut down. Ten Sleep had an ethic of comfortizing and minimal pocket drilling to help routes go. Louise... Sorry, 'Glueie' moved to Wyoming and started manufacturing ENTIRE routes. That's why things went haywire and got The Sleep shut down. Kevin Wilkinson went beyond the Red River ethos and made routes go where Red River routes don't really go. He was run out of town because of it. Because his routes are in the grade range that elite climbers cling to, they get climbed. Trash is constantly talked about Kevin's ethics yet they are adheared to. Hopefully, Ian's blatantly desperate measures to make entry 5.12 go won't become common place. I would think that a pillar of the community would hold higher standards. FGI was initiated because Ian wanted to perma-draw the Red River world. He was shut down on that idea and had to scramble to create a more legitimate stance toward safety and route development. Sadly he is not holding up those standards. Too bad his small contribution has now become tarnished with this nonsense. Incidentally, Table of Colors is not manufactured and IMO, if you have to make a route go in The Red, it just becomes a wet, sandy mess. So please, in the future, understand that this isn't granite or limestone. If you chip, drill or dig out holds in The Red, they will just be wet, sandy, and unclassic for the life of the route.
34
dustonian said on October 15th, 2020
Just a note, that is definitely not why the FGI was established. It was established to make stainless steel bolts accessible to RRG developers, and that's it. Replacing permadraws was an afterthought that came much later. Ok carry on with the idiotic anonymous slanderfest.
35
dustonian said on October 15th, 2020
Also, Ten Sleep is not "shut down"
36
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
There is a moratorium Dusty balls. So yes, it is.
37
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
Regardless of anything, Ian has lowered the bar of manufacturing routes in The Red. End of story.
38
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
The only thing idiot going on here is that a 1/3 of a .12a has been drilled out.
39
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
*idiotic
40
Rx2Climb said on October 15th, 2020
Has anyone been on the route? I agree that ideally you shouldn't ever manufacture a hold, especially if the route goes without it. However, if the manufactured hold takes the route from say a 2 star 5.12b to a 4 star 5.12a, then maybe its ok or not? or in the case of Left Flank, where they filed down a lot of the iron edges to make them more comfortable. That kinda sucks, but also its kinda awesome. I don't exactly want my palms to be bleeding while grabbing the jugs on Mercy. It would be interesting to know the logic behind what the developer did on this route.
41
Rx2Climb said on October 15th, 2020
Also......the bass mouth hold (beginning of the crux) on Table of Colors is a total drill job. Sorry to ruin your day Anon.
42
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
Where are the drilled holes? I didn’t see anything that looked manufactured, but then again I was to busy trying not to fall off with all the shit I was breaking off
43
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
The bass mouth is not manufactured. Do you know Porter? No? Well, I do. So stop talking about things you have only heard from the rumor mill. There is nothing more irritating than an idiot on a soap box that doesn't know what he is talking about.
44
Anonymous said on October 15th, 2020
Sorry but the bass mouth is manufactured. It's actually quite obvious. And yes I know Porter. Not sure why that matters.
45
Anonymous said on October 16th, 2020
Jesus Wept crux likewise with the perfect drilled out pockets. The longer you climb the more you realize manufacturing is everywhere in sport climbing.
46
Cromper said on October 16th, 2020
But it’s not, atleast here.
47
Anonymous said on October 16th, 2020
Everyone knows if Porter did it, it’s truth written in gold tablets, and angels sing when you do the same. /s Porter was a 20-something y/o punk kid running in the woods who could never have foreseen future bolting bans, overcrowded crags, 3000 sport routes in the Red, chopping wars, and so on.
48
Anonymous said on October 16th, 2020
A lot of good stuff here, but is it confirmed that it's been chipped?
49
discoweasel said on October 19th, 2020
Now let's see if we can sum up the arguments that have been made so far:- Drilling a hold is like murdering somebody. Just less blood.- Drilling a hold is always wrong and morally reprehensible. Except to make 13d go. Or if you are in Ohio. Or if it is granite. Or limestone. - Two holds on an 80-foot route equals one third.- The route sucks because too much rock was removed with a drill; the route sucks because not enough rock was removed with a hammer. - The slope is indeed slippery and Wyoming got fucked. - Ian started FGI, so as his punishment we better make everyone climb on rusty mank and make developers go (even more) broke by paying full retail for hardware. - Only an idiot would apply a compelling argument in a published article to justify the action which is precisely what the article argues is justified. - I've never gotten off my ass to scrub and bolt a new route, but I'll tell the people who invest crazy amounts of time and money into developing what crags they should do it at.
50
Anonymous said on October 19th, 2020
Cute.....taking hyperbole as literal, and giving bolters pass to do whatever they want on rock they don't own. Face it, a lot of people who replace bolts or develop new routes deem chipping unacceptable.
51
caribe said on October 19th, 2020
"ideally you shouldn't ever manufacture a hold, especially if the route goes without it." No! Your stance is too soft. Holds should never be manufactured. I often thought about manufacturing a trad placement instead of putting a bolt. If it were my stone I might, but it isn't mine; we are a community. Editing the stone indicates an entitlement that is way out-of-bounds. Editing needs to be strictly proscribed to maintain the quality and the international recognition of the Red. Manufactured rock detracts more from the overall quality of the Red than one more sport route adds to the overall quality of the Red.
52
discoweasel said on October 19th, 2020
Thanks caribe. Finally somebody is willing to come to the table with a cogent and well-thought out argument, and is willing to sign their name to it.  The anonymous postings here are nothing short of cowardly. Frankly I tend to agree with caribe and I'm not giving anybody a "pass."  Indeed my point was this whole thread was mostly a personal attack, basically all hyperbole, and the grand total of all the arguments made to justify the collective outrage amounted to a sloppy pile of shit. And while manufacturing holds is not good and always an extreme measure, it is also not the end of life as we know it. And perhaps it is justifiable in some very very limited circumstances.  Maybe, maybe not. Was it justified on this route?  An argument worth having to be sure. Folks need to come back to earth, set aside their self-righteous indignation and get some perspective on life. How about instead local advocates, developers, land managers, other community leaders, and anybody who cares get together (on zoom?) and have a grown-up conversation to reach a set of mutually agreed upon clear guidelines for acceptable behavior based on specific situations and specific locations when it comes to rock modification, including adding permanent or temporary hardware, comfortizing, trundling, removing vegetation, and yes, chipping. As the R&I article makes abundantly clear, it's not nearly as black and white as it might first seem.  A community pact wouldn't prevent all abuse, but it would create buy-in and give folks who care deeply a chance to voice their perspective calmly and compellingly -- and be a mechanism to hold people to account properly should abuses occur.
53
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
Existing routes are there. Can't do much about it now. But, chipping future routes should be strongly discouraged. A few members of the community rebolt, and it benefits everyone. A few members of the community can strip any future route with chipped holds too. Stopping this practice before it grows will benefit the whole community.
54
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
That's such a watered down, BS position. If you want to strip routes with manufactured holds have some backbone and strip the classics too.
55
climb2core said on October 20th, 2020
Thanks for all the input. I rap bolted this route, drilling and cleaning it as I went down. I made a mistake of assuming it would go when looking at it from the ground. Upon arriving at the blank section there was not the crimp rail that I had expected to see that would make it "go". So, after putting in 8 bolts or so and knocking of a bunch of choss, I was in a predicament. I decided that it seemed arbitrary to do a whole bunch of damage to the rock and not end up with a route. For the record, it wouldn't go with out, or it would be 5.17 something. Considering the rest of the route is 5.11, I wasn't robbing anyone of a futuristic climb. I don't condone it or think that it's the standard we should strive to when bolting in the Red. But I felt the route was worthy of being finished in light of the bolt holes already drilled and damage already done cleaning the rock. I climbed it again Sunday and it can go with one enhanced hold at the current grade. Currently, I plan on filling in the other and improving the texture of the one left. In the future, I'll make an effort to try to run the whole route to make sure it goes. This presents challenges too, because you have to find a way to keep yourself into the rock for 80+ feet and I often have to drill into the rock anyways. However, if the community feels that it needs to be chopped and filled, then that's fine too. It's a great route but I'm not emotionally attached to it. I'll get input from the developers at large within the community and make a decision.
56
Cromper said on October 20th, 2020
It is what it is. I don’t think further contrivance is needed. I’d say leave it how it is.
57
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
sounds like c2c just needs to get more skillful with "feature enhancement" so the armchair gumbos who've never bolted or cleaned anything in choss don't know the difference
58
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
A humble and smart reply and a lesson learned. Leave it and move on.
59
ray said on October 20th, 2020
Speaking of anonymous cowards, is disco weasel your real name?
60
climb2core said on October 20th, 2020
lol Discoweasel is a known entity and has gone by that name on here for a long time. Just doesn't post a lot. I wouldn't out his identity, but here's a hint Ray... He's on the FA and it's not me or Ralph
61
discoweasel said on October 20th, 2020
Of course it is my real name! I'm insulted you would even question it! On my birth certificate bitches! But yes, I've been outted oh-so-subtly and I don't mind in the least. I've got nothing to hide.
62
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
This is all so heartwarming I feel like going out and manufacturing some awesome 10a's right now!
63
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
Love it how people bitch about anonymous posting on here as they use their handles like that’s not anonymous lol
64
AidClimber said on October 20th, 2020
Man y’all are gonna be real pissed when you find out about Via Ferrata
65
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
Yes, put a Via Ferrata at PMRP and I will be really pissed, you bet!
66
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
67
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
Would have been a lot cooler if you made it a rose move on ring finger monos.
68
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
Sounds like a good potential RRGCC fundraiser to finance purchasing the rest of Hell Creek haha
69
Mdjagg said on October 20th, 2020
You should fill the holes, and undo the modified holds and put a bolt ladder in so people can use two draws to aid through. This will be the route's scarlet letter, but if the climbing is great on both sides of the blankness, then people will still want to do it. 11d A0?
70
Mdjagg said on October 20th, 2020
...Unless there's real holds out wide that you could just redo a few bolts to make it go. That would definitely be the best option, if possible.
71
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
Leave it. Whats done is done, additional modification seems against the idea of why drilling the initial pocket was incorrect. Other choices seem to overcomplicate things
72
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
You had a blank slate and came up with two pockets?! If it was me I'd have made a MANDATORY figure 4 off a jug.
73
Mdjagg said on October 20th, 2020
I'd rather see a deadpoint to draw clip! Also, if people really cared about manufacturing, they'd make all the routes with chilpped holds be aid routes, just to take a real stance against the practice. If that was the punishment, it would likely deter anyone thinking about it on a new line.
74
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
Mdjagg back in action with the dumbass comments again
75
Anonymous said on October 20th, 2020
Good read -- https://gripped.com/news/ten-sleep-climbers-say-chipping-has-to-stop/