COVID-19 Climbing Guidelines: The Red River Gorge in the Daniel Boone National Forest, Muir Valley, and all RRGCC-owned property - which includes Miller Fork Recreational Preserve, Bald Rock Recreational Preserve, and Pendergrass-Murray Recreational Preserve - request that you follow the guidelines outlined on each website if you choose to climb during this time. See links above for more details about each climbing area.

The Motherlode

Grade Trad Mixed Sport Total
5.11 3 1 69 73
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Directions to The Motherlode

This wall is on private property. Be respectful. Sign required waivers.
Drive 12.4 miles south on KY 11 from Miguel's toward Beattyville. Turn right on KY 498 and follow for 1.2 miles to Bald Fork Road. Take a sharp right onto Bald Fork Road and follow it as it curves left toward a house. Do not turn right at the first fork. After 0.3 miles the road turns to gravel and heads down a steep hill. At the bottom of the hill (0.8 miles) is the parking area for The Motherlode. Park on the right in the grassy patch or in a smaller gravel pulloff a little further. Locate the logging road that leads uphill from the back of the big grassy pulloff. Take the fork which immediately turns uphill to the right. If you are headed to the Madness Cave or the Undertow Wall, take the first road to the right. Move around the hill, go down and back up while staying left on the main road. As you near the crest of the second hill, turn left on a single track path which ends near Team Wilson. If you are headed to the Buckeye Buttress, Warm-up Wall, or GMC Wall, continue uphill past the road for the Undertow Wall and veer off on the second road to the right. This track will narrow to a trail a few yards before reaching the rock near Twisted.

Wall Sun: All day

{show overview map}


Click the column heads to sort. Hold shift to sort on multiple columns.
Route Spray Name Type Grade Quality User Stars Length Picture

1

One-eyed Willy Up the Back Sport 5.11c
 
2.36  (25) 50ft  

2

Trad Sucker Sport 5.11b
 
3.53  (60) 40ft

3

The Chronic Sport 5.12b
 
2.78  (41) 50ft

4

Twisted Sport 5.11b
 
3.35  (49) 50ft

5

The Reacharound Sport 5.12c
 
3.83  (18) 60ft

6

Stain Sport 5.12c
 
4.80  (71) 50ft

7

Buff the Wood Sport 5.12b
 
4.52  (75) 50ft

8

Golden Touch Sport 5.13b
 
4.29  (14) 45ft

8a

Fall of the Anticlimber (open project) Sport 5.14b
 
45ft

9

Heart Shaped Box Sport 5.12c
 
4.59  (63) 50ft

10

Overdrive Trad 5.9
 
70ft  

10a

Leftomaniac Sport 5.11b
 
2.91  (22) 70ft  

10b

Rug Muncher Sport 5.11d
 
2.87  (15) 50ft  

11

Ball Scratcher Sport 5.12a
 
3.92  (60) 40ft

11a

The Cream Machine Sport 5.10
 
2.95  (19) 60ft

11b

KAPOW! Sport 5.11c
 
2.80  (10) 40ft  

11c

All In Sport 5.11d
 
4.11  (19) 60ft

12

Three Wasted Bolts Mixed 5.10b
 
2.38  (13) 50ft  

12a

Ben Sport 5.11a
 
2.88  (48) 60ft

12b

Laura Sport 5.11b
 
2.85  (41) 70ft

13

Crescenta Trad 5.9
 
4.00  (1) 70ft  

14

Breathe Right Sport 5.11c
 
3.74  (46) 60ft  

15

Injured Reserve Sport 5.11a
 
3.19  (68) 60ft

16

Trust in Jesus Sport 5.11b
 
3.55  (60) 50ft

17

Purdy Mouth Sport 5.12b
 
3.91  (11) 70ft

17a

Mr. Sandy Sport 5.14c
 
70ft  

18

Take That, Katie Brown Sport 5.13b
 
5.00  (7) 70ft

19

Swahili Slang Sport 5.12c
 
4.87  (30) 80ft

20

So Low Sport 5.12b
 
4.17  (6) 70ft

21

Techno Destructo Sport 5.12b
 
3.33  (6) 80ft  

21a

False Positive Sport 5.12c
 
4.00  (1) 70ft  

22

Thanatopsis Sport 5.14b
 
4.33  (6) 60ft

23

Cut Throat Sport 5.13b
 
5.00  (17) 70ft

24

8 Ball Sport 5.12d
 
4.94  (52) 70ft

25

Snooker Sport 5.13a
 
4.60  (42) 70ft

26

Hot For Teacher Sport 5.12c
 
4.18  (22) 80ft

27

White Man's Overbite Sport 5.13c
 
4.70  (10) 80ft

27a

White Man's Shuffle Sport 5.13d
 
5.00  (3) 0ft  

28

Cosmic Sausage Sport 5.13a
 
100ft  

28a

Hell or High Water Sport 5.12c
 
3.25  (4) 110ft

28b

Transworld Depravity Sport 5.14a
 
5.00  (8) 110ft

29

BOHICA Sport 5.13b
 
4.53  (17) 100ft

29a

Last of the Bohicans Sport 5.13d
 
4.00  (2) 125ft

30

Flour Power Sport 5.13b
 
4.58  (19) 100ft

30a

Pushin' Up Daisies Sport 5.13c
 
4.43  (7) 120ft  

31

Omaha Beach Sport 5.14a
 
5.00  (6) 130ft

32

The Madness Sport 5.13c
 
5.00  (11) 120ft

33

Fourty Ounces of Justice Sport 5.13a
 
4.26  (27) 110ft

33a

Buck Eye Sport 5.13b
 
2.20  (5) 0ft

34

The Sauce Sport 5.12b
 
3.46  (28) 60ft

35

Leave It To Beavis Sport 5.12d
 
4.09  (23) 90ft

36

Tuna Town Sport 5.12d
 
4.29  (38) 85ft

37

The Flux Capacitor Sport 5.12d
 
3.70  (20) 95ft

38

Harvest Sport 5.12d
 
4.00  (31) 85ft

39

Hoofmaker Sport 5.13a
 
4.68  (28) 90ft

40

Team Wilson Sport 5.12d
 
4.78  (32) 85ft

41

Resurrection Sport 5.12c
 
4.52  (46) 80ft

42

The High Hard One Sport 5.12d
 
4.21  (19) 80ft

43

Crime Time Sport 5.12d
 
3.36  (11) 75ft  

44

Skin Boat Sport 5.13a
 
4.44  (32) 80ft

45

Convicted Sport 5.13a
 
4.79  (34) 70ft

46

Ale-8-One Sport 5.12b
 
4.39  (71) 65ft

47

Chainsaw Massacre Sport 5.12a
 
4.02  (97) 60ft

48

The Verdict Sport 5.12b
 
3.93  (29) 70ft

48a

Sam Krieg Will Bolt Anything (SKWBA) Sport 5.12a
 
3.03  (32) 70ft

49

Kick Me In the Jimmie Sport 5.12a
 
3.97  (79) 60ft

50

Burlier's Bane Sport 5.12a
 
3.51  (85) 60ft

51

Rocket Dog Sport 5.12b
 
4.03  (69) 50ft

52

The Low Easy One Sport 5.12b
 
3.43  (44) 50ft

53

Stella Sport 5.11d
 
3.23  (30) 50ft

54

Snapper Sport 5.11a
 
3.86  (51) 50ft

55

Stabbed in the Back Trad 5.10a
 
80ft  

56

Scrambled Porn Sport 5.12a
 
2.50  (14) 60ft

Comments

1
ashtray said on June 24th, 2007
The most bitchin' cliff. No doubt.
2
allah said on June 26th, 2007
for the old guys
3
Anonymous said on September 8th, 2008
Pack your toilet paper and tampons out of the Lode! It looks horrible over by routes 55-56. Burying, especially under a few leaves will not keep dogs and wood rats out of your crap and TP. Leave no trace!!!!!
4
heavyc said on October 27th, 2011
what is the deal with the bolted slab route between ball scratcher and three wasted bolts? somebody needs to claim the fa and post it
5
Anonymous said on October 13th, 2014
The trail to the crag is in horrible condition and would best be avoided by as many people as possible to avoid further damage unto the mud dries out some
6
Anonymous said on September 29th, 2016
I believe i left my TC Pros size 41.5 at this crag. I'm local, please send me an email at [email protected] of you picked them up or know anything about them
7
Anonymous said on April 17th, 2018
How many people would be outraged if someone added bolts between the first several existing permadraws on all the routes in Madness Cave? It's like someone is saying "If you're not a 13 climber, get the fuck out, or die". Or at least that what it feels like to me. The climbs are above my grade, but I'd like to start working on a few. With the terrible bolting, it looks like you'd hit the deck if you fell while clipping on the first several hangers of all the routes in Madness Cave. Would ya'll hate me if I added 3 bolts per route to make these routes safer climbs? BTW, I'm already laughing at your responses.
8
jkpugel said on April 17th, 2018
1. Typically adding bolts requires the permission of the FA/developer so you’d have to go ask a few people. 2. If you have a solid belayer and a stick clip, you shouldn’t deck on any of these routes. Especially if you can reliably climb 5.12c/d (which is probably a good idea before subjecting your belayer to your attempts on a 5.13 project) 3. I think the bolting in the cave is just fine and many climbers before me have also been ok projecting and climbing in the cave. Believe in yourself Anonymous, one day you too can grip the grabs in the cave and not die.
9
DrRockso said on April 17th, 2018
I would chop your bolts. Don't get on routes that are out of your ability level. No one wants to wait in line behind you (and the others that would be tempted to get on it) while you bolt to bolt a cave route, enough of that going on already. 5.10 sections on 5.13's aren't bolted like 5.10 sections on 5.10's get over it. Is this a very poorly executed troll?
10
Anonymous said on April 17th, 2018
To answer your question anon, most people would be outraged. But I think you already knew that. If you can't do these as they are improve yourself until you can. The world does not revolve around you. No need to pretend it's safety and the greater good of the community you are after.
11
Cocoapuffs1000 said on April 17th, 2018
The reason long, steep routes are "run out" at the bottom isn't elitism. It's so that rope drag at the top is manageable. If you have any business on the climb then tehe bottom is safe and reasonable. Pushing your limits is all well and good but there is a point where it gets ridiculous. If you struggle on the 5.11 part of a 13b, you need to set your sights a little lower.
12
Chiyram said on April 17th, 2018
Yeah Anon! Don't climb routes in the Madness you can't do your first go! No one should be climbing routes they can't onsite.
13
Anonymous said on April 17th, 2018
A dumb question for sure, but I think the impressive thing here is someone willing to put that kind of effort into just "trying" a route. Anon should put that motivation to good use - there are so many routes around the red that need hardware upgrades and bolt maintenance. Good on you anon for the motivation, bad on you for suggesting something so outrageously unnecessary.
14
climb2core said on April 17th, 2018
These routes have existed for 20 years in their current state. I have never heard of anyone getting hurt on the starts or even complaining about unsafe bolting. I don't believe there is as much decking potential as postulated. If you want to work it and are afraid of the fall, use your stick clip. Or go climb Singularity/8122/Twinkie/Phantasia/Spank/Easy Rider/Death by Chocolate/ad naseum until you gain the fitness and confidence.
15
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
Go for it man!! whatever you do, don't take into consideration that it is private land or the fact that the bolting down low was engineered that way for a reason. seriously though, 1 star troll or 5 star dumbass, will we ever know which ?
16
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
finally, a truly douche opinion.
17
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
If there where hangers available between the current permadraws, you wouldn't have to use them, just breeze past like they weren't there. For us that can only climb half the route, rope drag at the top wouldn't really be a concern. I'm the original asker, and I do think I could do the bottoms just fine, but the risk isn't worth getting hurt. I obviously wouldn't do the bolting without permission from the developer, and a lot of you are jumping to conclusions because you're an elitist and have been around for a long time. 1) Bolting at night is an option. 2) I understand not wanting to wait on a weaker climber to go half way and burn out, but that's probably half the time of a strong climber going to the chains. I watched a strong climber set the first three draws for a weaker climber that fell several times before starting their lead, and then they made it a good ways up a particular 13b. Looked like fun, and the second didn't get hurt. No complete beginner is going to show up there wanting to climb, I'm just trying to get stronger on routes that I know I can climb, but don't like the idea of risking injury, beyond the typical exposure to do so. Either way, the consensus seems to be "Fuck you, get out, or die", like I assumed it was.
18
shadow.ayala said on April 18th, 2018
Dude, no offense but there is no reason for the bolts. If you have a good belayer, you could fuck up every move possible and NEVER deck. It sounds like you might need to spend more time looking for a real belayer and less time trying to convince people that the routes need more bolts.
19
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
"Fuck you, get out, or die". To be wholeheartedly honest, when I saw your original post I started scrolling down and thought "OHH man this guy is gonna get torn to shreds." Instead you got mostly very reasonable responses explaining why you CAN NOT do what you asked and others even encouraging you that things may be safer than you may have thought. There were a couple antagonistic responses, but hey it's the internet - what did you expect. And your response: butt hurt, catty, accusatory. Sorry anon, but the annals of RRC comments (and they are storied and vibrant) will forever portray you as being the bitch here.
20
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
if you add the bolts i’ll simply remove them if drrockso doesn’t beat me to it keenan
21
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
I've never been one of these people that worships at the alter of "the good old days" - back when men were tough, and everyone did cocaine, and climbing was super duper cool or whatever other BS that people say. (Cool, you climbed in the 90s, we get it) With that said, we have to have some respect for those who came before us. Touching these 20+ year old routes in this way, routes that have been climbed safely by thousands of people, would be an abomination.
22
climb2core said on April 18th, 2018
Curious OP anon, what's your average redpoint that you can send in day or two on a route?
23
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
I get it now, that's why I asked. Maybe in a couple years I'll think intermediate bolts wouldn't be necessary, and I also could be wrong about decking, but just visually inspecting the distance between bolts looked very close. If I worked a route that was my style, I'd say 11c-11d range, or maybe a nice long 12 stamina route with good holds. Madness Cave looks amazing. I need to go back and take my laser tape measure with me:)
24
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
There ya go Anon! A much more reasonable response. Spend a season testing yourself on some of the easier undertow routes. You'll be ready for cave greatness in no time.
25
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
Can we get some more bolts up high too? I only climb 5.11 also, but I'm looking to bolt to bolt some routes. Might take me a few (3-4) hours to get up there and the big spaces between bolts are really annoying . Please spare me your elitist comments
26
Anonymous said on April 18th, 2018
no one said "get the fuck out , or die" We just said you have a really stupid idea and the bolts you were never going to place anyway would be chopped in the fantasy world where you actually do place them. There's no way to cheat success in climbing, be patient and work your way up through the grades, maybe if you don't get in the way of yourself (big IF) you might find yourself tying in at the madness cave someday
27
Anonymous said on April 19th, 2018
Hello everyone, I agree with anon and would like more bolts in the cave too. I just got lead belay certified in my gym and sent my first 5.10b. Madness cave routes inspire me, and I would like to start projecting them. Ideally the bolts should be placed so that I can reach the next one while I go in direct on one since I don't own a stick clip.yet. Thanks
28
Anonymous said on April 19th, 2018
facebook would be so much more interesting if everyone always posted as 'anonymous.'
29
Anonymous said on April 19th, 2018
Hi I'm Lenny and I want to put more bolts in the madness cave too. I love bolts. I like to string my pee pee through the bolt hole and slowly lower my bulky mass onto it. Then as the bolt tugs and pulls on my pee pee I reach the most amazing crescendo and spray my Lenny juice down the rock face. I love bolts.
30
ray said on April 19th, 2018
Hey anon, I too was freaked out when starting to climb in the cave but the bottoms really aren't that bad and it never felt as runout as it looks. It's just intimidating because the draws are so long and sometimes get wrapped around your leg and shit, plus they do look for a part. Once you get the moves wired though you don't even think about it and you're just focused on getting to the ledge where the climb really starts. Anyone there will spray you down too on the moves through that crap. It's more like just a crappy approach and adding bolts to it would be like adding potted flowers along the shitty muddy dusty approach trail up to the Lode.
31
KyleHT said on April 20th, 2019
The only thing more classic than the Motherlode itself is this thread...lmao. Props to "Lenny" for his amazing commentary. This is all just so, so funny to me. It's like asking for a via ferrata on La Rambla, or something. Anyways, this crag, to me, is the best in the Eastern USA, period.
32
fosterdi said on August 25th, 2019
I left my testarossa's at the Undertow yesterday, kinda below SKWBA if I remember correctly
33
Anonymous said on August 25th, 2019
Got your Testarossas for ya in the Migs gearshop fosterdi. Check the rest of your stuff and see if you're missing anything else. The same friendly folks turned in a harness that was also left yesterday afternoon
34
Anonymous said on March 26th, 2020
PMRP, Miller Fork, and BRRP closed temporarily by order of Lee Co. Judge Executive. The county owns a tow truck too, just sayin'.
35
Anonymous said on March 29th, 2020
Is it just the parking lots? We are coming down from Michigan this week and hoping to climb. Is it okay to park elsewhere if we walk in? Thanks
36
Anonymous said on March 29th, 2020
Lol trollll
37
Anonymous said on March 30th, 2020
I will be going around slashing tires of any out of state plates i see. Go for it stud.
38
Anonymous said on March 30th, 2020
But in state is cool? I’ll just rent a car. And I’m sure you like many from elsewhere originally are, “local”. slash away slut
39
Anonymous said on March 30th, 2020
People drive in to climb, dont go to any establishments, avoid all contact with people=not ok? But, people drive into town, get their tires slashed, end up having to get towed, go to the tire store, find a place to stay, get held up in town around everyone local if they dont have the money to buy new tires right away=ok? You may be a troll, but if not, you're moron and have no critical thinking skills. If people arent causing trouble, let the authorities make the call to slash tires or not. Covid Vigilante-ism will only make things worse. You're like the Anti Abortion rights pos who spews death threats.
40
Anonymous said on March 30th, 2020
A truck with California tags got its tires slashed in the Lode parking lot just a couple days ago. I disagree with vigilantism too, but let's face it, a lot of locals don't want out-of-towners there light now.
41
Anonymous said on March 30th, 2020
I hope the next person that is out slashing tires shows up to a gun fight with a knife, if you know what I'm saying.
42
Anonymous said on March 31st, 2020
Rental car tires slash the best. I hope you got the extra insurance you fucking tourist.
43
Anonymous said on March 31st, 2020
If any of you idiots would use your brain you might realize a lot of the climbers that live down here full-time, working at the local businesses, have out-of-state plates because they aren't from Kentucky. That was the case for the truck with CA plates as well. Nevertheless, nobody should be in the parking lots. We're staying right where we live trying to wait this out like the rest of the world, you all should do the same.
44
Anonymous said on March 31st, 2020
My hunch is that the local which slashed Charlie’s tires isn’t a climber and doesn’t read Redriverclimbing.
45
Anonymous said on March 31st, 2020
Brendan Leader slashed Charlie's tires. Twice!! Over some bullshit ex drama. That mother fucker needs to by that guy new tires. Brendan Leader is a pussy ass bitch!!!!
46
Anonymous said on March 31st, 2020
Sounds like Batman should be put in jail for a bit, or at least get deputized so he can be the official tire slasher of the county. And that was my first thought too, that most of the "locals" arent locals at all, but are just living there indefinitely for the climbing. I guess Brendan needs to start asking for tax returns before executing the slashing orders and make sure people are indeed out of towners. Must be tough having to make such tough decisions for the whole community.
47
Anonymous said on March 31st, 2020
It's funny how many of these seasonal workers call themselves locals and bash other out of towners. No one should be at the crags. Not even the "locals". Bummer you folks will be stuck here during the summer if this shit doesn't clear up.
48
Anonymous said on May 2nd, 2020
Damn, that was Charlie Barrett? I wish I would have known, I woulda asked him to sign my Bishop book and thank him for releasing the 3rd edition. We helped (watched) him get his tire changed. Said he lived here and I asked how long, he said one month. lol. So cute. Slashing the same car tires twice? Even to locals, that's cold. I felt bad for him but figured there was more to this than I was getting and sure enough...Girl drama(barf)!
49
Anonymous said on November 22nd, 2020
Who has pictures of the epic fail on the mo-lo hill? You can see tire tracks were some one backed down the hill and went off the road next to the small cliff band and rolled over. The cut trees have been rolled over and there is a windshield and back window still down there. I want to see a pic of a FIFO looking stupid next to their rolled car
50
Anonymous said on November 22nd, 2020
Damn. Careful when climbjng at the unload. Haha When did this happen? Everyone OK?
51
Anonymous said on February 15th, 2021
The current view of at least one RRGCC board member is that this land (BRRP, PMRP and MFRP) is stolen. See today’s post by dirtbagmomma on Instagram.
52
Anonymous said on February 15th, 2021
So if the land is stolen, are we supposed to give it back to its rightful owner? Who decides that?
53
Anonymous said on February 15th, 2021
Where have you two been the past 5 years? Stuck in a British-American occupied territory?
54
Anonymous said on February 15th, 2021
With control of the RRGCC concentrated in so few hands, it is legitimately concerning when a board member states the land is not rightfully owned by the organization, and that others have a legal right to that land. The implications are far reaching and a risk to climbers long term unfettered access. This is not hypocritical, this is a member of the board pushing an agenda counter to the original goals of the organization.
55
Anonymous said on February 15th, 2021
^typo. I meant “not hypothetical”
56
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
Are you sure they aren’t referring to the region previously being Native American land? I don’t think that’s unreasonable to note.
57
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
To note that is one thing, to say that we are utilizing land we stole from them is another. To take the stolen statement to its logical end is to return it to the rightful owner.
58
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
I mean, if I admitted that I stole your car, would you expect that I would then just recognize that by saying it...or would you expect me then to retrieve it to you? What is the underlying end game goal for a Board Member of our shared lands that is pushing this as a primary agenda item? Is this what the organization and its donors are best served by? I think someone is pushing there own agenda that is not in the service of maintaining and improving climbers access.
59
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
Fake news
60
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
I found it telling her use of the hashtags #stolenlands and #thisismyland Does she feel she has a right to ownership that others in the community do not? What else would that mean? I thought it was OUR land. If we buy it........
61
said on February 16th, 2021
Good lord. The reading comprehension of this site's anon users is abysmal. It shouldn't amaze me that you all can make up whatever meaning you feel like after reading something, but it somehow still does. This is exactly the bs she was talking about. White guys, never accepting the history that defines our present, and hating on anyone that dares to call it out. Youd think some weed smoking, vibey ass climbers would be the first group of people to acknowledge this country's brutal history of repression, and oppression, and it's lingering, and all too present effects. "Your" climbing will never look like it did in the past, and now there's people who represent this sport that you could have never imagined. Accept that it's no longer just yours, colonizers.
62
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
What if we determine the original owners find climbing on these rocks inappropriate? Will we ban climbing then? As has been done elsewhere.
63
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
The tribes have already asked that Triggered at DriveBy be removed.
64
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
Isn't the Lode/Choco Dario's? So he stole it!!
65
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
Jaggers, you oppress climbers by bolting your choss piles. GTFO.
66
said on February 16th, 2021
It's not mine either. If a handful of people, that are "just climbers", get to take away routes they don't like, then too bad for everyone else that likes climbing new routes. I enjoyed the route, top notch crux, and very easy to manage the gear. #SubjectToRemoval
67
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
Well known fact that the Cherokee are not interested in any land in Cincinnati, Lexington, or Louisville. They don’t want your house or factory or office. They just want PMRP. Nothing more, nothing less. The Cherokee are all about pumpy sandstone. Dirtbags before there were vans. Cherokee sent everything in the Madness Cave before Christopher Columbus striped the bolts. Or was that the Shawnee? The Iroquois were more into cracks so maybe it was them. Sport Shawnee and Trad Iroquois always fighting. All those massive boulders at the base of the wall from their FAs 1000 years ago. Proof chalk and pee wash away with enough time. Centuries of freeze thaw transformed those old bolt holes into the perfect finger pockets. “Oh look at that perfect line of pockets going straight up the face” said the ignorant white man. The Cherokee are coming for PMRP and the RRGCC will fight donors and climbers, Access Fund and local officials, battle to the death to make sure “Last of the Bohicans” is “Return of the Mohicans!” (Or maybe this website has reached a new low).
68
Anonymous said on February 16th, 2021
Jaggers is making the Native Gods angry by bolting virgin rocks. They did not grant you permission like they did other developers. They were all sworn in with a blood oath and lead by the apostle Porter Jarrad.
69
Rx2Climb said on February 17th, 2021
"The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, to whom it occurred to say this is mine, and found people sufficiently simple to believe him, was the true founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors Mankind would have been spared by him who, pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had cried out to his kind: Beware of listening to this impostor; You are lost if you forget that the fruits are everyone's and the Earth no-one's" Jean-Jacques Rousseau
70
Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
If this kind of cancerous identitarian, anti-white, victimization, oppression/privilege-Olympics ideology continues to infiltrate the Coalition, y'all may as well kiss climbing in the Red as you know it goodbye. As with everything it has touched, it too shall be destroyed. Because many of our ancestors were "colonizers," we must pay the price until the end of time for our inherent privilege and internalized racism. This is why POC aren't very much involved with the sport, not at all because most of them couldn't even be bothered to give a shit about climbing. One of the most inclusive activities out there is still sadly racist and bigoted by default because we do it on land stolen by those damned white devils. This is the thinking of a child and, lucky us, they're in positions of authority.
71
Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
Yep, I can see it now. "You are too white to climb this route. Move along please." A social privilege measuring system for climbing. Such a brave and beautiful advancement. Self-appointed Chief Dirtbagmomma shall be in charge.
72
Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
lol as she climbs on stolen land with her whole family every weekend..
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
She's awoken to her inherited privilege and the injustice thereof, so she gets a pass. That's how the system works. Proof of concept!
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
I just went and read the post in question, and if what you’ve understood it to say is that “white people shouldn’t be allowed to climb anymore”, then you have the reading comprehension of a meth-addicted 6 year old. Get the fuck out of here.
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
Realistically, it's not a huge leap from this type of mindset to the blanket closure of rock climbing, as recently happened to >90% of Australia. It is extreme and reactionary.
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
And you're naive to think that's not exactly what they would want if given the power.
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
We have desecrated native lands with our filthy presence for far too long. Cancel everything fun for everyone! How wonderful. It was fun while it lasted guys. I guess the New will be next on the chopping block.
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
Link to closures in Australia? I presume 90% is an exaggeration.
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
Can we just go back to making fun of Jaggers? That was way more fun. This is probably somehow his fault anyway...
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
Just say you’re a white supremest and leave, dumbass.
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
White supreeeeeeeeeemists! The biggest boogeyman since...well...the boogeyman!
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
https://savegrampiansclimbing.org/
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
For those not concerned, what do you think the purpose of calling the land stolen is? What is the expectation of how we make our theft OK?
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Anonymous said on February 17th, 2021
It concerns me the most when I read the comments on that post that a Board Member feels she needs to be so cagey in not disclosing what her underlying goals are. It’s no an innocuous agenda. The board is very small, and one motivated person can do a lot of damage.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
It's an appeal to emotion. Nothing more than virtue signaling in the absence of a cause or purpose to fight for. She's using her non-white "indigenous" heritage as a means to fill that void. Breaking through whatever "barriers" and "oppression" she's imagined for her and her ilk is her calling apparently. That's how she justifies shitting all over anyone who disagrees or represents "white colonization." In her eyes, we who just want to climb despite this nonsense are wrongly ignoring the abhorrent history of a sport built on the backs of colonizing white men. "I refuse to let climbing colonize me." The cringe is fucking palpable, and so is her apparent hate for white men.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Yep, she's gonna break right through those barriers so that she can place barriers on climbing access in the Red for the rest of us. Gotta make dem ancestors proud!
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Oh yeah, she hates white men so much that she married one. Do your research, before making idiotic statements.
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chandler said on February 18th, 2021
Climbers absolutely have a right to ask what the RRGCC’s intentions are for climbing lands. Climbers absolutely do *NOT* have a right to make unjustified personal attacks on a volunteer, a volunteer who has increased outreach and fundraising for the whole RRG climbing community. I cannot speak for the RRGCC, but I can speak as a former board member and attorney who has looked at all the paperwork. Fact: The RRGCC cannot just close PMRP/MFRP/BRRP. Even if the board wanted to, the Access Fund has the right to keep the properties open to climbing per a legal agreement made and filed at the Lee Co. courthouse several years ago. For example, spring’s COVID closure was done with consent of the Access Fund, even after Lee Co. already partially closed the properties by Executive Order. As for PMRP, there’s another legal arrangement that was made several years before that which would prevent permanent closure even if the RRGCC and Access Fund both wanted to close it. Most importantly, no one on the board or at Access Fund has any intention of limiting climbing beyond maybe a few specific environmental or archeological sites that we’ve all known about for years. The Instagram post in question made clear that she does not speak for the RRGCC as a whole. Feel free to disagree with the post. I did. Discourse is good; insults are bad. When I was on the board, I didn’t care one bit if other climbers didn’t volunteer or didn’t donate. The only unpardonable sin in my book was knowingly making it harder for volunteers to volunteer. Yes, ask sincere questions. But don’t do your climbing partners a disservice by making it harder for the volunteers to volunteer.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Literally nobody is talking about closing all access except y’all. You’re putting words into someone’s mouth that never even hinted at closing any areas, anywhere. The red is not like the Grampians, in that the climbing areas here aren’t surrounded by petroglyphs and actual ancient artifacts. There were a couple spots found, and those couple routes have been roped off. Boo hoo. There’s thousands of other routes in the red to climb, and no, they aren’t being threatened with closure. How are you so insecure that anytime a POC shares their experience that y’all have to pipe in and tell them to just go climb and shut up? That’s literally what she’s talking about when she said “colonized by climbing”(at least how I interpreted it). THIS RIGHT HERE is the reason that POC don’t get into climbing, regardless of how accessible it may become, because people like y’all can’t shut your fucking fragile white mouths and listen to someone who has had a different experience than you. So how about you take a bit of your own advice and shut the fuck up and climb. No one is closing the red, quit being so fucking fragile.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
When you take a position of power and then make ambiguous public statements in regards to the assets you are in power over, you will raise concerns. It’s an inept move, and has caused legitimate concerns about what her intentions. Words and hashtags matter. Leaders have to use them wisely.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
And her words never said anything about shutting down climbing areas. You inferred that with your poor reading comprehension. Do better, before coming on a public forum and dragging someone’s name through the mud. It is an undeniable face that the US is stolen land. There are countless resources on this, and I’m not going to spoon feed them to you. There are lots of indigenous climbers and outdoors people who have spoken on this. Do some research, and know what you’re talking about before you make reactionary assumptions, and slander someone on the internet. Or maybe, I don’t know, ask any number of people who talk about how america is stolen land, about these things that you obviously don’t know anything about. Would you have reacted the same way about this, if it were a white person saying the same thing? Or a man, rather than a woman? Maybe, maybe not. Nobody’s going to close down your favorite route, bro. Get off this innocent woman’s case, dude. She shared her experience on her page, and never hinted about closures. Grow up.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Ok; so what are the actions and changes she wants then? To atone for the theft?
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
I can’t speak for her, since I’m not her. All I can assume is that it starts with som recognition that the land isn’t ours. In native beliefs the land doesn’t “belong” to anyone. We belong to it. I donate, and support keeping it open to climb on for as long as it exists, however I don’t own it. Which is likely why the rrgcc and her label them as the ancestral lands of the Shawnee and the Cherokee, because those lands were where they lived for thousands of years, before being forcibly removed by the US government, and having the land sold for either the government’s or some white dude’s profit. How can you climb here and claim to love it, if you don’t believe the land is sacred? How can you claim ownership of something that’s billions of years old, like Appalachia is? The answer is an Anglo-Saxon and Puritan mindset of everything having ownership by a person. That is, in and of itself a colonialist ideology. To decolonize climbing is to recognize that, and change the way we speak and think about the land. It doesn’t belong to us. We belong to it. You’re assuming that “doing something” has to be this giant change of hands from owner to owner, but it’s not so much a change in the actual power, as it is a change in mindset. Changing one’s self, not changing the red or eliminating climbing from it.
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Cocoapuffs1000 said on February 18th, 2021
This last string of comments are without a doubt the worst drivel I have ever seen on this site. And that is REALLY saying something.
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Rx2Climb said on February 18th, 2021
I heard Dirtbagmomma runs a satanic pedophilia ring in the basement of Hops Fork. The Eagle will soar when the bell chimes 3 times. Tides are stronger in the east. Watch for rode signs!
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Well I guess that applies to our homes too. Let’s give them back and go somewhere else. Sheesh. There is a broad distance between saying these lands are stolen and Qanon style thinking. The distance in between is called moderation and rational thought.
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Steezmcgee said on February 18th, 2021
Remember the good old days ? Back when climbing was just cool ass pictures and sandbagging your boys, before it turned into a bunch of wanna be insta-famous Social Justice warriors trying to press there left-ist agenda on the world. Climbing used to be an escape from the world ....well, Thanks alot for ruining it.
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Steezmcgee said on February 18th, 2021
Also while I'm at it .. I understand wanting to make climbing "accessibe" but drilling pockets and manufacturing routes to make climbs accessible to All skill levels (which apparently is what we do now) is just too far..
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Steeze makes a key point. We give to and volunteer for the RRGCC because we love the mission of acquiring and maintaining these world class climbing lands. This skew by the RRGCC to spend more effort on political viewpoints is creating division and is entirely unrelated to the mission. It is ok to have political opinions and not interject them into everything. Climbing really can be an area where we all enjoy it together without all the colonization talk which has nothing to do with the goals of the RRGCC. I am fine if that is some people’s viewpoint. Totally fine. I am sure there are great organizations you can join to focus on that. But it is not helping the RRGCC. In your bubble that may be a common belief and hot topic, but not everyone lives in your bubble.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
If the bubble contains everyone who has legitimate knowledge and cognition of empathy and the ability for reading comprehension, I'm glad you aren't in it. I think this is one of the last popular climbing sites that still accepts such narrow-minded and egotistical comments purporting inclusivity and equity while dismissing any evidence of the contrary.
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Steezmcgee said on February 18th, 2021
If you dont like it, then dont logg on BUBBLE BOY.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Alright, Mr. "Remember the good 'ol days of climbing when we could be surrounded by only white-people and make racists comments without anyone calling us out".
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bcircell said on February 18th, 2021
Here's the thing. Typically, the people advocating to just "go climb" are the ones who don't have bullshit obstacles in their way and don't really have a sense of what that might be like. (I know I sure don't) People have mentioned that this is outside the mission of the RRGCC, but is it really? When I checked almost all of the language is aimed at "all people". If a subset of the population is avoiding rock climbing because of real or perceived barriers isn't it a good thing to try and make some progress in lowering those barriers? Aren't more voices, and more diverse voices crying out for the protection of public lands a good thing? Almost certainly yes. Is this outside what the coalition should be doing? I don't claim to have the correct answer, but my gut feel is also yes. I do feel that sometimes people's perception of coalition efforts in this area is very outsized compared to the reality. I'd also direct a giant "go fuck yourself" to all the anons. Bri is a wonderful person, and all the slander and gigantic strawmen you have constructed while (mis)representing her actions and intentions from behind an anonymous handle just shows that you are a little people, leading inconsequential lives filled with petty jealousies. Lastly, and probably reflecting the crusty misfit nature of the old guard I find anything that makes comfortable people uncomfortable endlessly entertaining.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Y'all really need to just go to the coalition's website and read their mission, vision, and value statements before commenting cause you are just making a clown of yourself. And if you can't tell which side of the argument this is about you are thinking the opposite way
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Damn, white boys really are the most triggered snowflakes of all.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Not sure how someone being tired of libtards dragging politics into climbing makes them a racist.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Okay to bring dogs here?
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
I am not a cat, and I like the stock!
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
"close PMRP," lol. this whole thread is about something never proposed and legally impossible.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Leashes not required on doggs, some owners should wear muzzles though.
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Rx2Climb said on February 18th, 2021
There are so many damn whiney snowflakes on here. There are more open routes and accessible crags in the Red than ever before. No areas have been closed for political reasons. Stop your bitching!!!!
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
This whole thread is nuts. Winter done made us all cray cray. If anything happens it happens in slow steps. So you will see them long before. First it becomes acceptable to talk about how the lands belong more to one group than the other, then they preserves will be renamed to recognize these historical injustices, then there will be select days for certain groups only to be allowed access, then- - - No no no, it’s nothing at all. It’s all good! Come on spring before we all lose our minds.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
Free anonymous comments. Get what you pay for from a name you can trust.
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Anonymous said on February 18th, 2021
God, these comments are so fucking ignorant. Here's an education lesson for you: Indigenous peoples have a unique relationship with their lands that cannot easily be translated into Western notions of ownership or legal title. For indigenous peoples, land is not a commodity. It exists for collective material and spiritual benefit, and must be preserved for future generations. The health of land and water is central to their culture. hmm where have i heard that before? oh right... The RRGCC's website where it states that one of their strategies is "to promote exemplary stewardship of the natural environment on the lands where we climb"
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Anonymous said on February 19th, 2021
Sorry to tell ya Steez but those days are long gone. Nowadays, every little thing is infected with an obsession of the wrongdoings and tragedies of the past. So I ask: to what end? For how long? Do we just continue being guilt-ridden eternal apologists, perpetually sorry for being the product of "colonizers" and bowing to every whim of these "oppressed" people battling the newest bullshit barrier or injustice of the day? Grow a fucking set and stop apologizing to these people. You owe them nothing. Just because you happen to share the same skin color as some evil bastards long ago doesn't mean you have to make unfair concessions to people who have never faced true oppression. Many of them are gaming you for everything you're worth because they've convinced you it's the "virtuous" thing to do. I'm sorry, but two wrongs don't make a right. We will never have understanding and forgiveness so long as you keep buying into these constant victimization vs. justice and oppression vs. privilege dynamics exploited by these wannabe civil rights leaders on fake-ass social media. So long as they continue gaining an unearned leg-up through these means, true progress will forever stagnate. They'll never stop, and why would they? It's so much easier to cry victim, preach about breaking through perceived barriers and injustices and be hailed as a hero for it than it is to steel yourself by earning an honest, respectable living without spiting every Tom, Dick and Harry for their so-called privilege. These people find meaning in being as many downtrodden identities as they can muster, not in being a unique individual.
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climb2core said on February 19th, 2021
I think it's time to shut down the site Ray. Sadly, I think the RRG would be better off without it. Or at least turn off the comments and just use it for route beta. This place is a dumpster fire.
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Anonymous said on February 19th, 2021
Goddamn dude, I’m not sure how you can claim there are no modern day obstacles that women or POC face, that white people don’t, seeing as you’re almost assuredly a white man(your fragility concerning the advancement and equity of any other people group kinda gives that away). But I suppose that when you’re used to privilege, equality probably feels like oppression. This division that y’all love to claim was created by “leftists” or whatever had been around for hundreds of years, and was created and is continuing to be perpetuated by, guess who? Racist-ass white folks. Y’all are an embarrassment not just to the climbing community, but to your race as well, because you refuse to grow as a person and show even the smallest sliver of empathy toward people who have more societal obstacles than you, even to the point that y’all deny those obstacles even exist. You talk about evils that happened long ago, and I’m not sure what the fuck you’re talking about because this isn’t about what happened back then, it’s about what’s happening today; the systemic racism that was built into the system by those people long ago still persists, and indigenous people are still being systematically eradicated via blood quantum, which is a method used to test and maintain the purity of animals, but is also being used to slowly get rid of indigenous peoples so that the government no longer has to honor the treaties that they made(and already broke every one). It’s not the job of POC to educate you on the ways these things still are happening today, so go read a fucking book that wasn’t written by someone you already inherently agree with. Or, should y’all choose not to educate yourself, at the very least, crawl back into whatever white-hooded hole you crawled out of and shut the fuck up, because the world and climbing are changing whether you like it or not, and your unabashed racism is only being tolerated by an ever-decreasing population of people. Seriously, just either wear the label of a racist proudly or shut the fuck up and go learn something.
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dustonian said on February 19th, 2021
Agree with C2C... embarrassing
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said on February 19th, 2021
I vote for Ray to just expose all of the IP/Mac addresses from anons. Be a fun game to go back and see who's who. C2C, just pray for a DDoS attack, because Ray couldn't care less about the anon fiction that he publishes.
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Cromper said on February 19th, 2021
I think we all need a hard yes or no if dogs, bluetooth speakers, drones, and hammocks are allowed at this crag. These are the real important issues at stake.
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chandler said on February 19th, 2021
Part of her volunteer activities includes teaching gym-to-crag classes. RRGCC started these classes a couple years ago so that first-time outdoor climbers have a clue about dogs, bluetooth speakers, drones, and hammocks. Bri isn’t getting attacked for that, or for anything else she did as a board member or climber. She’s getting attacked for her personal political beliefs. If I were in her shoes reading this, I’d throw up my hands, say some four-letter words, and walk away from volunteering. That just means more drones and hammocks. While I disagree with some of her politics, I am glad she’s there as a board member.
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Cromper said on February 19th, 2021
I was merely throwing in a bad joke to lighten the mood. I am grateful for people who do the jobs I don't want to do. Thanks to the mentioned board member for their services in that regard :)
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chandler said on February 19th, 2021
My comment was not aimed at you Cromper. Sorry if confusion.
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Spagel said on February 19th, 2021
Wow... I've never seen so much ignorant nonsense in one place. I've watched for years as the discourteous comments of some have left an unfortunate blemish on crags, routes, and an overall fun website. I've had friends (outside the Red) with whom I've shared accomplishments who have commented on the stupidity, racism, and disrespect they've seen here. It's disappointing to see it growing into a full-blown white fragility meltdown. You'd think a bunch of privileged white climbers (myself included) would recognize what an honor it is to climb in such a beautiful place with a rich history. You'd think, given the general education level of most climbers, we wouldn't get into a pissing contest through anonymous comments about matters that are irrelevant and irreverent. But alas, we prove ourselves to be nothing more than children ready to "spray" our bullshit beta at whoever will listen. Whether we like it or not, the land we climb on, was never ours. Is it now? Sure. But let's not forget history lest we doom ourselves to repeating it. And let's get off our high horses and have a goddamn conversation instead of an anonymous comment battle with no point or purpose.
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Anonymous said on February 22nd, 2021
"But alas, we prove ourselves to be nothing more than children ready to "spray" our bullshit beta at whoever will listen." The fucking POSTER CHILD of that shit right there!! hahahaha
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KhaoticKlimber said on February 22nd, 2021
While I can understand where Bri's coming from, I believe there's a more relevant discussion to be had here. Very few, if any, indigenous people have lived in this area for quite awhile, but do you know who has? True locals; generations of people who were born and raised in small, largely impoverished towns like Beattyville, Campton and Stanton. How has this massive influx of eco-tourism and recreation impacted them? What's to be said about the millions of dollars and visitors that have affected the backwoods of their homes, most likely, unbeknownst to the majority of them? How could this be utilized to improve the local economies and standards of living for these people? While there's a discussion to be had about this land and it's past with indigenous peoples, I believe discussions about the present impact on locals should take precedent. Leave the politicizing and talk about colonizing out of it. Obviously it's ruffled a few feathers and made a dialog virtually impossible.
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Anonymous said on February 22nd, 2021
Ownership of Appalachia's minerals and forests by outside interest has been described by many scholars as an "Internal Colonization." (i.e. https://www.ojp.gov/library/abstracts/internal-colonization-folk-justice-and-murder-appalachia-case-kentucky ) Company towns were not much different than indentured servitude. It didn't help the locals much. Forest were clear cut. Oil and coal was dumped in the creeks. If you replace "Pittsburgh Steel Baron" with "Columbus Climber," how much has changed?
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said on February 24th, 2021
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLpYx7zjPAn/?igshid=1t5o5gmxcsnlr - Thatd be a tough one to misinterpret, even for the 4th graders that frequent this site. This is what the anon morons can't seem to grasp, the white experience is not the same as the non white experience, no matter how hard you try to ignore reality.
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RRGCC said on February 25th, 2021
The Red River Gorge Climbers’ Coalition is committed to promoting diversity in all facets of climbing. We are dedicated to creating safe spaces in the outdoors and want everyone to feel welcome on our property. We vehemently decry the racism and bigotry that has unfolded in the above comments and will continue to work as a board towards providing inclusivity to all of our visitors. The outdoors are for everyone. Any further questions or comments can be forwarded to [email protected]
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Anonymous said on February 25th, 2021
I just had the displeasure of re-reading every comment in this thread. There were attacks on dirtbagmama, "libtards," "snowflakes," and "social justice warriors." These attacks read as if they were motivated by political position, not by race or ethnicity. The only attacks which were obviously racial were "white boys really are the most triggered snowflakes of all" and the like. I presume the RRGCC did not mean to shut down honest political debate with the "racism card." Unfortunately, the statement was ambiguous as to which bigoted comments Coalition had in mind. Finally, given that the RRGCC's statement was made now, in this forum, makes me wonder if it is official endorsement of positions in dirtbagmama's personal posts.
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ray said on February 25th, 2021
I was contacted about it and asked what I was going to do. I read through the comments albeit quickly and nothing really stood out as blatantly racist so I didn't do anything. I rarely remove posts on here because I don't feel like being the speech police but if there's a threat of violence or something crazy I'm open to it.
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Anonymous said on February 25th, 2021
I fully support inclusiveness. And I appreciate everything the RRGCC board does. We do, even, have to be willing to include those who have different viewpoints. While I can’t deny the comments above became unnecessarily dogmatic and devisive, it seems the Board should have explained how the stated view on ownership has and would affect their management of the shared lands. Looking past the wacky turns this thread took, that was the underlying concern. As a diverse organization, it should be recognized that not everyone is going to be of the opinion that the lands are stolen and may have concerns that are not at all tied to racism or ill will toward the RRGCC or its Board Members. It is possible to be a supporter of: inclusion, the RRGCC, and its board members whiles simultaneously being concerned. I know, I know nuance is hard on the internet, but we can hope.
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Anonymous said on February 25th, 2021
Maybe 100 people saw this thread. 5,000 people will see the RRGCC's FB and IG posts saying there is bigotry and racism here. Not how I would have gone about making 4,900 people feel included.
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
Nothing blatantly racist was even spoken here, save for the several "white fragility" comments. It's sad that nowadays, any opinions outside the politically correct status quo can be immediately labeled as racist or bigoted without question. The RRGCC would be wise to remove said posts. Making a mountain out of an anthill is not the answer here. The Red is not swarming with racism or some such nonsense. Unnecessary emotional reactionism everywhere.
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
Racist things that have happened in this thread: 1. Using the term “chief dirtbagmomma” is disrespectful not only to indigenous elders but also uses a term that indigenous people have blatantly asked white folks to stop calling them because it upholds the idea of a primitive civilization, when they are real people in the current day and age. 2. “Making the native gods angry” diminishes another race’s spiritual beliefs which are central to their culture, and also vary from nation to nation. 3. Dismissively talking about someone’s ancestors, when in nearly every indigenous belief system, the ancestors are extremely revered, showing disrespect to said culture. 4. Claiming that talking about racism is the thing keeping POC out of climbing, rather than the inherent racism of many climbers(notice: many, not all) 5. The absolute white fragility of not being able to talk about colonization and the fact that all of this land was stolen- not just the Red, but all of turtle island. Including Canada, the usa, and Mexico. This is racist because it upholds the idea that “the system has been made, let’s just leave it alone, even though that system perpetuates the oppression and marginalization of Black and Brown people. 6. Claiming that the barriers put in the way of BIPOC folks are fabricated, and that because those things didn’t effect you, they don’t exist, even though they were created by other white men to keep themselves in a position of power. 7. Most recently, claiming that the “only racist things said were about white fragility”. You cannot be racist against white people. Can you be prejudiced? Sure, but not racist, because racism is rooted in power dynamics, which are strongly weighed in the favor of white people, specifically white men. 8. Claiming that any of this is “political”. Equity for BIPOC isn’t about politics, it’s about human fucking rights, and all of the racist policies that affect people TODAY. This isn’t about something that happened a long time ago, it’s about the way it’s still being handled NOW. And if y’all were really so upset about “politics in climbing” you’ve lost your minds over Rick doing the border wall challenge two years ago, because that was literally done for the sake of spiting a politician. Like, do y’all really think that racism ended with Dr King and the civil rights movement? Do y’all really think that the only way to be racist is to call them the “n word”, or refuse their business, or kick them out of the crag for being BIPOC? Because there are roughly 2 thousand books that have been written by people who I would venture to say are better educated than any of us fuckin skeezbags, that would say the contrary. God, I’m so tired of having to spoonfeed other white folks information on racism. Do your own goddamn research, and get outside of your personal bubble.
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
Can any of y’all imagine how absolutely unsafe and unwelcome this poor woman probably feels now, because of this thread? Chances are, you’re actually driving a person out of the red, who is doing nothing more than trying to make it a better and more inclusive place. Y’all should be ashamed of yourselves.
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dustonian said on February 26th, 2021
This site is the 4chan of the rock climbing world hahaha #sad!
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
Not Ray’s job to monitor this crap. Please don’t take the moderation approach. This isn’t Facebook. Silly that the coalition asked him what he was going to do about this series of dumb ass comments from some moron who has trouble accepting the fact that much of this was Native American land previously. Frankly, I don’t think anyone is reading this comment chain wondering if the red is their safe place. Let’s be honest, it’s no ones safe place, given a general infestation of outdoor ignoramus buffoons (mostly from Ohio), swarming every crag from March through November.
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climb2core said on February 26th, 2021
Ray could potentially be held liable for the content on this site. "Obscene or Offensive Content and Bullying To some extent, what you allow your users to contribute to your pages depends on what sort of community you wish to create. It's always a good idea to tell your users what is and is not acceptable content for your website. This is not only for practical reasons - if your website is used as a vehicle for hate speech, harassment, bullying or stalking, you could be held legally liable. Many websites produce separate Community Guidelines or an Acceptable Use Policy which sets out what sort of content they will accept."
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
The problem is, the definitions of such things are incredibly vague. What one person views as bullying, harassment, hate speech, etc. could be in poor taste, yet completely harmless to another. Unless there is a clear call to violence, it's hard to see how Ray could be held liable for anything.
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
If this thread raised this much of a stink, just delete it. Sure, tempers flared, emotions were heated and responses were poor, but it's a battle of ideologies at the end of the day. No harm is being wished on anyone here. Nothing is lost by removing these comments.
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
Held liable? In the court of hurt feelings? Where’s the crime in the above comments? Will there be a deposition/case? Is someone getting sued? There isn’t any liability here, merely opinion. Sure it’s a strong and unpopular opinion, but that’s it. This is a public route comments section that Ray doesn’t have any moral obligation to regulate. Very simple solution. Perhaps Ray could add this to the page description: “all opinions expressed by redriverclimbing.com users are not necessarily held by the creator(s) of redriverclimbing.com. This site is not monitored or regulated by the creator(s) of redriverclimbing.com. Redriverclimbing.com is liable for any comments or future actions resulting from comments that are posted on redriverclimbing.com. Your use of redriverclimbing.com is taken as an expressed agreement to the above terms”
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
Redriverclimbing.com is *NOT liable... Whenever anonymous files a lawsuit against anonymous...
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
Hear ye hear ye. All rise for the honorable judge anonymous presiding over the case of anonymous versus anonymous case number anonymous in the anonymous court of anonymous
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ray said on February 26th, 2021
Ian, not true. I'm protected by Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. Please don't spread misinformation.
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
Ian, come on, Man. Get your facts straight before you try to escalate the drama related to these comments. You are not helping at all. You are not a voice of the community nor of reason, merely self-appointed to that self-perceived role.
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
We may not agree with the troll, but let the troll speak. This is a public non-regulated forum. To the RRG climbers coalition: Please don't try to monitor or regulate strong comments that offend you or you do not agree with. If the coalition is contacting Ray and asking what he will do about the expression of unfavorable opinions, it begins to sounds as if the coalition wants to control the conversation and what opinions/messages are available for the community to read. Removing voices of dissent is not how you lead, especially if you desire an inclusive approach to leadership, which, painful as it may be, involves accepting opinions you do not agree with and engaging in meaningful discussions, seeking resolution among opposing standpoints.
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said on February 26th, 2021
The irony of the Coalition being influenced by the trolls, and then getting trolled themselves. This is why I troll the trolls, because they deserve to be called out for being the fucking morons that they are. Anon douche bags will make up fiction and say anything they want, just for fun, and just to see what they can get away with. Ray, how about removing the ability to post anonymously? It would solve every issue this site has, and RRC could potentially turn into a climbing website, and not a training grounds for hack ass trolls. That is, unless you get off on it, which seems to be the case. It's one thing to allow the community to have a platform for free expression, it's another to allow anons to run your website into the ground, which is what has happened, sadly.
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Anonymous said on February 26th, 2021
Dude half the anon posts are Ray, why do you think he keeps paying the GoDaddy fees? Lol
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climb2core said on February 26th, 2021
Section 230 provides a large umbrella of protraction but its not a panacea. Copyright, child pornography, and more loosely defined obscenity does not fall under that protection. It’s funny that this is what you respond to for “ spreading misinformation” However, it seems that the best thing you can do to limit your liability is by not policing your users
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ray said on February 27th, 2021
Ian you are correct that the less I moderate, the less liability I face. I had to explain this to Rick Weber nearly weekly when he used to troll the site. I don’t want anyone to think that their political discussions will threaten me or my site.
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ray said on February 27th, 2021
Mdjagg, you bring up another point which I’m tired of discussing. My profession is Information Security and I can tell you that proper identification cannot be performed by simply requiring someone to verify ownership of an email address. To properly correlate a username to a person requires a number of factors which could include biometrics or private/public key pairs. If anyone is familiar with the practice of utilizing throw away email accounts to assume another identity it should be you. So with that said, I ask you how I limit anonymous posting when everyone on the internet is anonymous?
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ray said on February 27th, 2021
Oh and just noticed you suggested I “get off” on the trolling that goes on here which I don’t. My focus has been on developing a new app for Kentucky bouldering and climbing. So welcome to my bad side with that comment you malformed piece of shit.
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Anonymous said on February 27th, 2021
Thanks for saying what we’ve all been thinking, Ray! Hopefully this steaming turd doesn’t clog the sewer line.
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said on February 27th, 2021
Hit a nerve? Truth hurts, captain. Keep letting your site get ran over by anon trolls and this will be an unused relic left standing as proof of your misdirection. And your anger is no different than anyone else's, it affects you, not me. I posed a hypothetical that you 'get off on the anon trolling', so thanks for clearing that up for us. Your site is dying, and it's your lack of ability to change with the times that is going to be the cause. Forcing user names allows for people to build recognition, something people don't just throw away for a lame ass troll attempt. So, yes, one could make a 100 user names, but it won't happen. And no, Ray, I use one name to post on here. Call me out if you actually have proof otherwise.
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anticlmber said on February 27th, 2021
MJaggoff, considering this site has been going for 14+ years with some of the same old comments/tone is proof it prolly ain’t going anywhere anytime soon. Hell, you alone have kept this site going for the last year with content. If ray shut it down, I think it would bring your world to a halt as you’d have no way to play your victim card or have back and forth banter you said you wouldn’t respond to. People on here are everything from super nice, huge dicks, overly sensitive, and crass as can be. And I don’t see it changing and hope it never does. As a guide for routes, this site does a great job and is fine enough. The comments just add to the enjoyment of the popcorn eating. The great overlord Ray has done a great job over the years. The only flaw this site has is the people who think they could do better without doing anything. Kind of like your replies to the people bashing you and your routes. Maybe one day we can all have a big hug, a beer, and move on.
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michaelarmand said on February 27th, 2021
Ray – the online guide is an amazing resource that is turning in to an unwieldy mess with all this bickering. We have a forum perfectly suited for arguing about politics, trolling, debating who has the biggest drill bit, etc. Can we move this crap and let the anons post in the “You suck! I suck! Everything sucks!” forum?
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said on February 27th, 2021
I've asked Ray, privately, to remove my submissions from this site, and he refuses to do it. If he deletes all of my entry's, ill never post again on here ever. I'm posting here to bring up the points that anons are goons, liars, trolls, and worthless to this community, and that Ray is their protector. Ray could have made the change to force user names years ago, but he loves this shit show of a forum. Now, ill ask publicly. Remove my submissions, and you'll never hear from me again. Pretty easy to do, but the Troll in Chief has chosen to keep me around, for some reason. He must really like me.
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Anonymous said on February 27th, 2021
Mdjagg, your argument boils down to: I troll because Ray makes me. Zero personal responsibility.
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ray said on February 27th, 2021
Mdjagg, I’ll just delete your account. Bye.
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
The greatest thing to happen to Red River Climbing in years, now if you could just delete his future accounts that pop up too.
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
Cruel, Ray. To the trolls. They’ll starve.
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DannyD said on February 28th, 2021
I am praying for more kindness
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
Make sure to flush twice, maybe three times, and wipe the splatter from the inside of the bowl.
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
I feel so free knowing that this malformed turd has been given his final swirly! Thank you for Christmas in February!
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dustonian said on February 28th, 2021
Lmao props Ray... best thing to happen in the Red since Horatio was born from the ass of Clevis Hitch
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
Someone new will feed the trolls. They won't starve. As for Mdjagg, we were too hard on him. It is not his fault he has whatever deep personal issues he needs to work out. But until he does, excommunication brings welcome peace.
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vertical1 said on February 28th, 2021
Since this seems to be the only comment chain that gets read around here, can I make a special request Ray? Can we get bald rock Crag added to the site for those of us point chasers? It’s been in print for a couple of years so it’s not a secret crag anymore.
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said on February 28th, 2021
The epic level of irony is amazing, Ray. Captain of Anon Free Expression also turns out to be the Snowflake Queen of Cancle Culture. Cant take a minor dose of criticism over the ridiculous shit show that he's let flourish on this "online guide". Ol' Crusty Snowflake. Glad Ray has shown everyone exactly the kind of hypocrite he is. Promoter of anonymous trolling, and canceler of anyone with the nerve to call out his childish rationalization for keeping this site a hub for trolls. Classic baby boomer hypocrisy.
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
Ray got triggered, bro. Snowflake, maybe, but what would you expect from the ego maniac that let's his guide turn into a platform for hate speech, and then readily defends it?
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
Party over. I knew Mdjagg couldn't stay away for 24 hours.
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ray said on February 28th, 2021
My god mdjagg you may be the weakest man I’ve ever seen on this site. You literally cannot keep yourself away. It’s sad really. I hope you have at least one friend. Is there anything else I can do to help you to stay away?
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
And now he can become what he hated so much, an Anonymous poster shroud in mystery. Oh sweet irony how I love thee. As for you uptight “snowflake” fucktards, realize that this site, (like the world) is full of all types of people and perspectives. If you don’t like it, that’s for you to deal with. This site like the world is not here to cater to you and your woes. Climb a fucking rock and shut the fuck up.
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
Care there. "Just shut up and climb" is always racists, 100% of the time. Therefore your comment must not have anything to do with Mdjagg's posts or routes. You mean you hate Mdjagg for his race. (/s) Normally I would be outraged but I read it's impossible to be racist against white people.
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Anonymous said on February 28th, 2021
Soooo, a half Asian half black person cant say shut the fuck up and climb?? Fucking racist. Learn something new every day
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said on March 1st, 2021
For the 3rd time, I would like to see my submissions removed from this site. If you do that, you'll never hear from me again.
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Anonymous said on March 1st, 2021
Easy fix honestly. You know, if you just stop coming here to this site, or posting; you won’t see your submissions or the reply’s. You’ll be free. . Here’s your chance to be the BIGGER man and walk away. I’m sure you won’t though. Especially since you’re now just another anonymous tourist poster. I’ll check back in 30 min for your reply. Here’s your chance to do you, boo. Embrace it.
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ray said on March 1st, 2021
Hilarious dude. Your session cookie is still active so you’re showing up as no username.I think that’s beneath anonymous. I’ll delete your session cookie tomorrow so you’ll be gone for good.
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Anonymous said on March 1st, 2021
A fitting end for the online version of jaggyboy to become the ignorable nobody that he is in real life as well haha
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Anonymous said on March 1st, 2021
Ray, your the shit man! Rat-baby
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climbhigh said on March 1st, 2021
SCIN for prez
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said on March 1st, 2021
Ray, youre as childish as the trolls that you protect. Everyone knows the anon posting is ridiculous and archaic, youre just too lazy, too dumb, or too egotistical to correct your mistake, or at least realize that YOU are the cause of all the drama that exists on your platform. People everywhere should know that you have the ability to end the douche baggery that exists here, but you have chosen to allow it, and ultimately encourage it. Such an odd thing for an old man to want negativity and childish harassment to thrive on a platform that you "moderate". You've proven to not only allow for users and database contributors to get harassed, but also Coalition Board members. I dont mind being the bad guy, if it means standing up against all of the moronic douche bags that have created the most toxic climbing scene in America, and probably the world. Quite a beautiful legacy you've created, Ray.
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Anonymous said on March 1st, 2021
Questioning the opinions, motivations and intentions of people who have assumed leadership positions is not harassment. Leaders choose to take on roles and accountability, transparency and disclosure is expected.
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Anonymous said on March 1st, 2021
Dude, this tiny website might represent a microscopic fraction of the community here, no matter how much you don't want it to. Before you start bitching about mean internet trolls again, maybe next time don't threaten physical violence against people who would rather not climb your shitty chosspiles on shoddy homemade bolts.
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Anonymous said on March 1st, 2021
"...all of the moronic douche bags that have created the most toxic climbing scene in America, and probably the world"... love it when jaggybritches gets self-referential and really lets the unbridled projection rip
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michaelarmand said on March 3rd, 2021
Anyone have recent information on the road conditions to the lode or solar collector?
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Shannon said on March 4th, 2021
As of March 3, the road to the Lode is fine. The road past Chocolate Factory is a little tore up but passable. Don't know about the road to Solar.
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anticlmber said on March 4th, 2021
Thanks for the update. Everyone be safe out there and have fun climbing rocks.
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said on March 30th, 2021
Just wanted to say a big THANK YOU to Ray for the massively positive changes. This site is golden now that trolls don't run the joint. Really enjoying the climbing comments. Sorry if this detracts.