gate at solar collector/darkside entrance

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DriskellHR
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Post by DriskellHR » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:38 am

Clevis Hitch wrote:It seems to me that erecting a gate seems a little coercive. Whats the deal wit you guys and gates anyway? I thought that the CC was an organization dedicated to preserving climber access by opening doors. Do you have to resort to heavy-handed tactics of threatening closure?
Okay try reading it this time

http://rrgcc.org/access/gate-at-solar-collector/

And nobody is threatening closure except the folks who dont help by donating. If it be money, time, or materials. Just illustrating the point that it could all dissapear if we dont help maintain what we have. Seems pretty simple to me.
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Post by charlie » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:47 am

It's an FYI to let people know the climbing isn't free, even though they might assume it is. The gate is not locked and there are a lot of people working to keep it from being locked.

I'd consider it more of a door than a gate. The point of the (unlocked) door is to try and communicate that help is appreciated since many people don't know (or appreciate) how hard a lot of people are working to keep it from being closed.

It's just trying to communicate man, and communicating ain't an easy gig.

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Post by Lateralus » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:55 am

I don't see how threatening closure is heavy handed, considering it is a real threat to climbers at the Murry property, especially if people don't contribute. What better symbol and reminder to climbers that a very real gate with very real consequences will replace said symbolic gate if the property isn't paid off? What do you propose? Making a website (already done) that no one really reads, except most likely people who already contribute? Having meetings (already done) that very few people attend? I wonder what the percentage of climbers is that use the land and have never offered one red cent to the coalition? the only way to reach people who generally don't give a shit about stuff until it's too late is with very easy to understand threatening symbols right under their nose that they have to go out of their way to ignore.
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Post by bcombs » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:58 am

Just an FYI... somebody put a sticker on the gate that said "Sponsor of the Equestrian Games", or something like that. Our assumption was that the trail may be used in the upcoming event in Lexington. Which made no sense, but neither did the gate.. until now. :)

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Post by DriskellHR » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:08 pm

bcombs wrote:Just an FYI... somebody put a sticker on the gate that said "Sponsor of the Equestrian Games", or something like that. Our assumption was that the trail may be used in the upcoming event in Lexington. Which made no sense, but neither did the gate.. until now. :)
that was from the maker of the gate. I think THEY are the ones who put on the sticker. I just did not scrape it off for fear the paint would get messed up worse. I will bring some sticker remover with me next time I am down there. :D
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Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:30 pm

wd-40 removes stickers pretty easy unless its a water-based adhesive, then water works fine.

So we all agree that the gate can be directly interpreted as a veiled threat of imminent closure unless climbers realize that "freedom of the hills", aint free.
Just so we get that straight.

My concern here is that the CC has delved into the negative with the gate. Negative conotations,coercion. Everything but an outright threat.
Its my personal creedo not to question with out a solution. How about this. The CC morph into a more open group and allow people to participate in events and event planning. Outright I'm saying. How about having more events. If something was going on in the Red once a month you'd raise more money. People come to the Red and the only thing that they have to spend money on is camping and pizza. If there were say a outdoor comp or a field party with an entrance fee of $10 and a couple of kegs.
All I'm saying is that when you start putting up gates you start shutting people out. The CC has enough of an elitist aire about it as it is without more gates going up.
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Post by pkananen » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:07 pm

I don't think the CC has an elitist aire at all.

There is no threat of closure by the CC. The fact is, WE are the CC, and WE lose access if WE don't pay for it.

I think things like this gate are more effective than a field party.

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Post by captain static » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:13 pm

Don't read too much into this. A gate is a primary part of the Access Fund logo. It is not a new concept. The RRGCC has been using the idea of imminent closure in literature to encourage donations and participation for years. After racking our brains about using email, websites, events, presentations, kiosks, etc. this was simply an easy and cheap way to get our message out directly to climbers. There are many climbers out there who are oblivious and this is the best way we could come up with to get their attention.
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Post by charlie » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:16 pm

Word to the WD 40, and what Bill said.
Clevis Hitch wrote:.......So we all agree that the gate can be directly interpreted as a veiled threat of imminent closure unless climbers realize that "freedom of the hills", aint free..........
I do not agree with that statement. The intention was simply to raise awareness of the efforts going on. Those efforts are going on whether people are part of it or not, but it's still important to make those efforts known.

If people feel like they want to assist, great. If people feel threatened, that's between them and their conscious.
Clevis Hitch wrote:.....If something was going on in the Red once a month you'd raise more money.


I look at the numbers, and I can tell you that ain't the pattern.

More events is more work. More people involved is more work. None of this happens without a certain amount of management and direction. Team management and defined direction isn't something that happens magically without effort. If I could dedicate 40 hours a week to working for free and managing everyone's suggestions and communicating everything that's going on behind the scenes and organizing events I probably would and we might stand a chance of raising more money. Sadly, I work more than 40 hours a week at the gig that pays my rent. We all do.

I can't tell you how many events we've lost money on. That money we lost was almost always donated by BOD, the big givers we always have, and the event sponsors, but these events don't always make money. Our margin is usually pretty low unless it's a huge event.

Think what you want the BOD isn't a lazy group of idiots (how's that for elitist)? We get a ton of stuff done and have no shortage of ideas of what else we'd like to get done. Maybe we don't communicate as well as we should, maybe we could sacrifice more of our time and effort to do more stuff and help other people do more stuff, but that just means we burn out quicker and we all do have lives outside of the RRGCC (or we used to). Not that continually defending our actions is really anything we have to worry about.

We as an organization hesitate to take on any more responsibility, and rightly so. We've bit off more than we could chew too many times in the past and that not only sets a bad example with poorly organized tasks and events, it really burns those of us out that have been doing this for more than a minute.
Clevis Hitch wrote:.The CC has enough of an elitist aire about it as it is without more gates going up.
Funny how I haven't heard that in years from anyone else. Most everyone I talk to thinks we're all pretty friendly.
Last edited by charlie on Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by bcombs » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:17 pm

Shame is an effective tactic. Post a list of donations over the last 5 years on here with the intent to post an updated list in 6 months. New donations would triple.

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Post by Izzy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:21 pm

Clevis Hitch wrote:How about this. The CC morph into a more open group and allow people to participate in events and event planning... The CC has enough of an elitist aire about it as it is without more gates going up.
It blows me away when I read stuff like this. I'm not a local, so I don't know what the atmosphere is down there right in the middle of everything, but in my opinion (and through direct experience) nothing could be further from the truth.

The gate is a great idea, I've talked to at least a half dozen out of town climbers in the PMRP who had no idea who the RRGCC is or what the status of access is. Symbolic, thought provoking and hopefully... effective.
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Post by ynp1 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:07 pm

if there is no threat of closure, why have a gate??? i helped build that trail to SC and DS (so did clevis) and i never saw in the plans a gate... WTF??? why not pull out the bridge and say that because of budget cuts we had to sell the bridge. i think that would make a bigger statement...
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Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:08 pm

bcombs wrote:Shame is an effective tactic. Post a list of donations over the last 5 years on here with the intent to post an updated list in 6 months. New donations would triple.

You don't see that as negative? You don't see the threat of your private donations or lack thereof being made public for the purpose of ridicule being a threat.?

Get a grip!
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Post by pkananen » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:12 pm

Clevis Hitch wrote:
bcombs wrote:Shame is an effective tactic. Post a list of donations over the last 5 years on here with the intent to post an updated list in 6 months. New donations would triple.

You don't see that as negative? You don't see the threat of your private donations or lack thereof being made public for the purpose of ridicule being a threat.?

Get a grip!
He obviously wasn't serious. The point is, cutting to the heart of the issue is most important. If you want private land to climb on (and every climber does), it takes money. People don't like giving money, but they suuuuuure like to climb.

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Post by bcombs » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:15 pm

Uhh, Clevis, I was just fucking around. You know, the same thing you're doing here?

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