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anticlmber
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Post by anticlmber » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:55 pm

when in doubt a good solid "LOOK MOTHERF$%KER" works well.

yeah, i don't plan on changing the world all at once but if we continually lay down without a peep then how long before you have "welcome" tattooed on you?

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steep4me
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Post by steep4me » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:29 pm

You don't need your hand on the rope at all times with a gri gri--you need yor hand OFF the cam if there is a fall (one way to have your hand off of the cam would be to grab the rope instead).
Hauling a big ego up a route adds at least a full grade.

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Post by lena_chita » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:53 pm

I sure don't want to start yet another gri-gri thread... but early on in my gri-gri user days, I caught a fall where the much-heavier climber pulled me up to the first bolt-- or rather slammed me, gri-gri and all, into the first bolt, it wasn't the case of slowly being pulled up to the first bolt, if it weren't for the bolt being where it was, I would have continued going up for quite a bit. Anyway, the cam got opened when the gri-gri pressed against the draw, and the only reason the climber didn't deck was because my brake hand was on the rope. Just letting go of the cam to allow it to do it's work would not have been enough. I have never had this situation again, so, theoretically, all the other falls would have been just fine with my hands off the cam and not on the rope. But one time is all it takes, so yeah, my hand will stay on the brake.



I thought of another addition to anti-climber list:

7) be familiar with a variety of belay devices, so even if you never use Cinch, (or SUM, or Eddie, or whatever) you can tell if the person who is using it is doing it correctly.

anticlmber
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Post by anticlmber » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:12 pm

steep4me wrote:You don't need your hand on the rope at all times with a gri gri--you need yor hand OFF the cam if there is a fall (one way to have your hand off of the cam would be to grab the rope instead).
and its this mentallity that causes accidents. most people i watch just hold the cam to feed rope, many w/o watching the climber. when someone falls, it only takes a second to cause an eternity.
if you can't understand that your brake hand is just that and that it should live on the brake end, well....then maybe you don't need to belay

my $3.74

i have seen two gri-gris, both in good shape, both loaded properly with ropes of 10mm or bigger fail to engage the cam. both times the person had a hand on the break end, luckily.
Last edited by anticlmber on Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eric Cox

Post by Eric Cox » Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:25 pm

steep4me wrote:You don't need your hand on the rope at all times with a gri gri--you need yor hand OFF the cam if there is a fall (one way to have your hand off of the cam would be to grab the rope instead).
Do these instructions come from Petzl???

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Post by powen01 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:02 pm

anticlmber wrote:
steep4me wrote:You don't need your hand on the rope at all times with a gri gri--you need yor hand OFF the cam if there is a fall (one way to have your hand off of the cam would be to grab the rope instead).
and its this mentallity that causes accidents. most people i watch just hold the cam to feed rope, many w/o watching the climber. when someone falls, it only takes a second to cause an eternity.
if you can't understand that your brake hand is just that and that it should live on the brake end, well....then maybe you don't need to belay

my $3.74

i have seen two gri-gris, both in good shape, both loaded properly with ropes of 10mm or bigger fail to engage the cam. both times the person had a hand on the break end, luckily.
I can't emphasize enough how much people should read and re-read anti's words here; 100% correct.

Hand on the brake always. If you can't pay out slack efficiently and keep your hand on the brake strand at the same time, then find someone qualified who can show you how to do it.[/u]

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Post by clif » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:26 pm

lena_chita wrote:I sure don't want to start yet another gri-gri thread... but early on in my gri-gri user days, I caught a fall where the much-heavier climber pulled me up to the first bolt-- or rather slammed me, gri-gri and all, into the first bolt, it wasn't the case of slowly being pulled up to the first bolt, if it weren't for the bolt being where it was, I would have continued going up for quite a bit. Anyway, the cam got opened when the gri-gri pressed against the draw, and the only reason the climber didn't deck was because my brake hand was on the rope. Just letting go of the cam to allow it to do it's work would not have been enough. I have never had this situation again, so, theoretically, all the other falls would have been just fine with my hands off the cam and not on the rope. But one time is all it takes, so yeah, my hand will stay on the brake.

I thought of another addition to anti-climber list:

7) be familiar with a variety of belay devices, so even if you never use Cinch, (or SUM, or Eddie, or whatever) you can tell if the person who is using it is doing it correctly.

i think a checklist is fine and a good handle for maintaining the importance of safety awareness. but i would caution against too fixed a process that diminishes actively engaging in thoughtful consideration of possible outcomes. there are many variables. i quoted you because the dynamics of a weight difference in climber/belayer is a classic example of potential energy in a system having unforeseeable consequences. even if you keep your hand on the brake, getting pulled up into the rock could knock out your teeth, causing intense pain and letting go, possibly.

there are so many more eventualities, a checklist just should not be considered an adequate substitute for caution, experience, judgement.

I hope Mike's spirit renews in us all a dedication for life.

anticlmber
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Post by anticlmber » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:35 pm

if not for a checklist, where would you have learned about:
doubling back and making sure the belayer is as well?
tying in properly and double checking it?
checking to make sure device is loaded properly and carabiner locked?

its all a list, a checklist, that should be done. done enough it becomes habit (or experience, caution, whatever word you need to put on it) but we should always keep from becoming complacint and remember our "checklists"

everytime i climb, i double check myself and my belayer, everytime i clean, i check my system twice before going back on the belayer/rappeling. i will always do this and encourage others to do the same. every accident should be a chance to ask yourself, "am i safe and how can i be safer"

remember, its YOUR life on the line and at times another persons. i think we owe it to each other to take a look at the system, EVERYTIME.
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Post by captain static » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:44 pm

Terry was a pilot. Pilots use check lists. Astronauts use check lists. Use a checklist.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh

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Post by robert birchell » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:55 pm

Not everyone can be a "top" climber but you can be a "top"
belayer. It's not difficult.

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Post by robert birchell » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:09 pm

5. if you see something unsafe, say something
I would add to that. If you see a belay that looks like
an accident ready to happen simply put on your
BELAY GLOVES and tell the belayer you will help
keep the kinks out of the rope.
Keep the rope in both hands and if the fall happens
and is not stopped slowly squeeze the rope with both hands
and lay the rope across your hip. I have only had to catch one
fall in this manner and worked well because the climber
was less than 100 lbs., had clipped 5 draws and the rope
was thru the belay device so plenty of friction.

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caribe
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Post by caribe » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:46 pm

steep4me wrote: You don't need your hand on the rope at all times with a gri gri--you need yor hand OFF the cam if there is a fall (one way to have your hand off of the cam would be to grab the rope instead).
:shock:
this is sad. There are so many reasons hashed through previously why this attitude is so very incorrect.

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Post by maine » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:59 pm

It's not just sad its terrifying! And a good indication that we will unfortunately see more accidents . . .

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Post by maine » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:02 pm


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kato
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Post by kato » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:53 am

robert birchell wrote:I would add to that. If you see a belay that looks like an accident ready to happen simply put on your BELAY GLOVES and tell the belayer you will help keep the kinks out of the rope.
I understand your sentiment here, but this could lead to a really bad situation. Put yourself in the other person's place: imagine your partner is on lead and you are belaying and someone comes along and starts putting their hands on your gear.
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