Ground Fall @ Drive-By

Access, Rehab Projects, Derbyfests and more...
Post Reply
The Sherpa
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:47 pm

Post by The Sherpa » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:28 pm

Rapid (1st hour) treatment can ameliorate some of the damage.

If you fall in the gorge I get the feeling by the time you get to Lexington it will be more like 2-3 hours. The "golden hour" is lost. Some of the stuff Muir Valley is doing could significantly lessen the time but 1 hour is nearly impossible
We do not stop playing because we grow old, We grow old because we stop playing.

powen01
Poser
Poser
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:12 am
Location: Louisville, KY
Contact:

Post by powen01 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:09 pm

I take a small exception with blaming gyms/gym owners for the scores of unprepared climbers that go outside... It's not their job, and opens them up to greater liabilities should they engage in training and instruction for the outdoors (that is why God created AMGA guides). Their duty and obligation is to protect the climbers in their gym. You can't hold them accountable for the scores of people that assume that gym climbing is sufficient instruction for the outdoors. "So how do we get the rope down?"...

That said, the gym IS a good touch point for beginners who wish to go outside to progress or experience climbing even more... It is a missed opportunity for the RRGCC and others to touch these beginners with posters or pamphlets and information as to what to expect when they venture outdoors. I'm not talking about instruction, I'm talking about a flyer or a poster that says, "Hey Gumby, BEFORE you go outside, can you 1. Clean a route? 2. Belay properly? 3. Lead properly?"... Like a checklist even... you could include advice to seek professional guidance, LNT, first aid, etc. You could even put this in local gear shops. Just a thought... Until people are forced to confront their inadequacies, they are frequently ignorant to the true implications of these failings. Perhaps even a posting of accident reports from incidents in the RRG and surrounding areas... That should perk up a few ears.

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Post by climb2core » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:26 pm

Vertical1, I understand your line of questioning.... by 15 feet up the climb may only be overhung by a foot or two. I can only tell you what I saw. My. Assumption is she had body tension and was leaning back. I think traveling an additional 4-5 ft after her hand popped off is plausible. Again, I am stating what I saw as accurately as I can recollect...

rhunt
Suspiciously French
Posts: 3202
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 8:02 am
Location: Cbus

Post by rhunt » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:40 pm

so how did she get the rope burn??
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Post by climb2core » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:28 pm

rhunt wrote:so how did she get the rope burn??
Well most rope burns sustained during a fall are due to rope management error, letting the rope get behind the climber above the last fixed point... but again this is only speculation.

rhunt
Suspiciously French
Posts: 3202
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 8:02 am
Location: Cbus

Post by rhunt » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:40 pm

Right I get that. But with a clean fall to the ground, how did she get rope burn?
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Post by climb2core » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:48 pm

Probably was caught enough to get turned horizontal, but not enough to break the fall...

pkananen
Poser
Poser
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:20 pm
Location: cinci

Post by pkananen » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:37 am

rhunt wrote:Right I get that. But with a clean fall to the ground, how did she get rope burn?
You can easily get ropeburn close to the ground from the rope section from the belayer to the first bolt. It's usually at an angle and the belayer will be close to you.

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Post by climb2core » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:31 am

You can easily get ropeburn close to the ground from the rope section from the belayer to the first bolt. It's usually at an angle and the belayer will be close to you.

Understand what you are saying, but she landed behind her belayer by too much of a margin. Usually you get belayer to first bolt rope burn when they catch you (before the ground) and you get pulled towards the wall, have tension on the rope, and are between the belayer and the rock.

captain static
Hippifried
Posts: 2438
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 2:05 pm
Location: On Yonder Mountain
Contact:

Post by captain static » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:26 am

powen01 wrote: It is a missed opportunity ... to touch these beginners with posters or pamphlets and information as to what to expect when they venture outdoors.
This has already has been done. It is called ClimbSmart that was developed by the Outdoor Industry Association and is supported by the Climbing Wall Association. The ClimbSmart poster is commonly posted in climbing gyms. The four key points of ClimbSmart are: Climbing is Inherently Dangerous; Qualified Instruction Is Required;
Use Equipment in Accordance With the Manufacturer's Instructions; Your Safety is Your Responsibility. ClimbSmart also has this expansion of the first point:

Climbing is Dangerous:
Stack the Odds in Your Favor.

• Check your knots and harness buckle
• Inspect your gear and replace as necessary
• Know your partners and their habits
• Check your belay - are you sure you're on?
• Read all warnings - they can save your life
• Fixed gear is unreliable - back it up when possible
• Keep an eye on the weather
• Rock breaks - check your holds
• Always double check your rappel system
• Remember, safety is your responsibility
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh

Meadows
Puppy Pimp
Posts: 5425
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 12:03 pm
Location: Singing in the sunshine - laughing in the rain

Post by Meadows » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:25 pm

So, Rhunt ... what do you propose as the solution if you're blaming gyms? They're not going away anytime soon and I don't see how we can make them legally responsible.

Sometimes the best instruction comes from close calls and minor accidents. My idea, although difficult to bring to fruition, is how I became a more cautious driver: defensive driving (10 over the speed limit all the time :wink: ). It was taught on video by a very talented comedian. I remember SO much from that video (and they used clever techniques to make sure we paid attention). This idea would take some money though, and enforcing it might take carrot dangling, but if you remember any of your education, you remember the funny ones and what they said.

powen01
Poser
Poser
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:12 am
Location: Louisville, KY
Contact:

Post by powen01 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:38 pm

captain static wrote:
powen01 wrote: It is a missed opportunity ... to touch these beginners with posters or pamphlets and information as to what to expect when they venture outdoors.
This has already has been done. It is called ClimbSmart that was developed by the Outdoor Industry Association and is supported by the Climbing Wall Association. The ClimbSmart poster is commonly posted in climbing gyms. The four key points of ClimbSmart are: Climbing is Inherently Dangerous; Qualified Instruction Is Required;
Use Equipment in Accordance With the Manufacturer's Instructions; Your Safety is Your Responsibility. ClimbSmart also has this expansion of the first point:

Climbing is Dangerous:
Stack the Odds in Your Favor.

• Check your knots and harness buckle
• Inspect your gear and replace as necessary
• Know your partners and their habits
• Check your belay - are you sure you're on?
• Read all warnings - they can save your life
• Fixed gear is unreliable - back it up when possible
• Keep an eye on the weather
• Rock breaks - check your holds
• Always double check your rappel system
• Remember, safety is your responsibility
I've seen those and heard of the program. I guess these are optional for gym owners? I'll have to check and see if there are any in my local gym (rocksport) when I get in there next.

rhunt
Suspiciously French
Posts: 3202
Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 8:02 am
Location: Cbus

Post by rhunt » Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:47 pm

Blame? When did I stake all the blame in the climbing gyms? Aside the fact that all the "blame" lies with the climber and maybe belayer. We are all responsible for our actions and decisions - what route to climb?, who will belay me?, etc.

Yet I do think climbing gyms share a responsibility and in educating new climbers about outdoor climbing. Whether that be direction with outdoor climbing classes or indirectly with poster and pamphlets. The one little suggestion I made is for climbing gyms consider not using the Yosemite decimal system. One of the reasons VA in Columbus doesn't use the Y-system is because they know that route difficulty their can't compare to climbing on real rock. Some gyms choose to "sandbag" their routes for the same reason, as someone suggested RQ does. The point is to not give new climbers a false sense of ability thus getting over their heads outside. AND I am not even suggesting that is what happened is this case.

I hope your "education" suggestion will help.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist

User avatar
clif
Loser
Loser
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:24 pm

Post by clif » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:12 pm

i think lena chita makes some points worth noting. some spotty replies are cause for continuing concern for me.

i'd want to check, but the rocks ate the base of BB prolly don't extend out much past six feet, which is where the ground turns mostly smooth and flat.

and i think it's fine to make judgements about accidents and the thinking (or lack of) of the team. were they communicating about ground fall potential?

i'm particularly aggravated by the mention of the irrelevant fact that the climber had been on a harder route that day. so predictably simplistic to equate hard climbing with competence.

'gyms aren't responsible for ....' argument . pretty lame.

User avatar
pigsteak
The Crocodile Hunter
The Crocodile Hunter
Posts: 9684
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:49 pm
Location: Like Prince my name has now changed..please call me Piglovely.

Post by pigsteak » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:33 pm

gyms are responsible for...just as lame.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

Post Reply