Question for the CC

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Clevis Hitch
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Question for the CC

Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:07 am

I'm not going to spend alot of time on this. I just want to ask a question. It's the same question that I've had all along.

I've thought how to pose the question so as to not cause a flame war. This is the best I could come up with. Please forgive me if the question wants to make you to scratch your eyes out of your head. Also, try not to bury the question with a bunch of hate/bs. If you can contribute to the dialoge then please do so, if not then please refrain.

Why are the board members not directly elected by climbers?
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by Saxman » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:11 am

It is my limited experience that they are. Take part in meetings regularly in a civil intelligent manner and be a successful active participant in the operation of the coalition and you will be asked. How many people out there have shown up to several meetings, worked on many projects, have the time and the desire to be a board member, and have not been asked? My guess is that number is zero.
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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:17 am

Thats not an answer... what is that, red herring...straw man? Which one would that be...? anyway, I digress,



Why are the board members not directly elected by climbers?
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

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Toad
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by Toad » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:26 am

Do you mean the climbing public at large? Because right now, I think climbers are electing climbers.
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by RRO » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:29 am

first off...im not a bod member, never have been a bod member and more than likely will never be a bod member of the rrgcc. my involvement with them is driven by the fact i like to work and love the area. so my answer cannot officially answer for the bod.

i dont have a lot of time right now but do think this is a legit questions and deserves to be talked about as adults without flame wars.

as saxman said, its not hard to get on the bod. show up to meetings and events, learn how the organization is ran, learn what the challenges are, participate in events/projects that are going on, bring something new to the game and poses skills that are needed at the time. you also have to be able to handle things without knee jerk reactions and look beyond the current and into the future of the area and the organization. you also have to be willing to take the heat even when trying to do good, cause with any change there will be friction.

imo, i like the fact that the bod spots are not community elected. just because someone can win an election does not mean they have something to bring to the organization or are what is needed at the time, it just means they are popular with those that would vote.

people that are involved usually are involved for a few years before they are asked to join as an official bod member. reasons and needs change based on what the problem/projects are going on at the time. sometimes law help is something that is needed, sometimes fund raising skill are needed, sometimes its community involvement skills are needed or we may have a forest service project going on and those skills are needed. the bod understands the needs at the time, especially for concerns that may not be public for whatever reason.

now to say every seat has to be voted in, maybe not and having a "community bod member" is worth talking about. but the majority of seats imo should be appointed and not voted by everyone.

those are my basic thoughts on the subject joe. i will write up more when i have more time.
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by DuppyC » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:38 am

Clevis, sometimes your posts are so dumb, but, you still entertain me every once in awhile between 8-5.

I will answer your question with a question and hopefully it will be enough to end this post.

Why doesn't everyone that owns a computer elect the BOD at Microsoft?
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by pkananen » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:45 am

Probably because most people don't care? No one joins the BOD for selfish reasons, therefore if someone cares enough to be on it, they probably have something good to contribute.

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Re: Question for the CC

Post by captain static » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:59 am

Clevis Hitch wrote:Why are the board members not directly elected by climbers?
This is a straight question that deserves a straight, simple, answer. Here it is - RRGCC Board members are not directly elected by climbers because the original founders of the RRGCC chose to use the "non-membership" model in setting up the organization. This is a common model for small non-profits. The way I like to explain it is that the RRGCC is a company, not a government. When I have time after Rocktoberfest, I can get into the benefits of the "non-membership" model if you like.
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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:04 pm

DuppyC wrote:Clevis, sometimes your posts are so dumb, but, you still entertain me every once in awhile between 8-5.

I will answer your question with a question and hopefully it will be enough to end this post.

Why doesn't everyone that owns a computer elect the BOD at Microsoft?
Are you on the board? Are you answering for them? If you can't differentiate between a private corporation and a users group/charity then you are the one thats dumb.

Please refrain from stupidity and try to keep this on track.
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:14 pm

captain static wrote:
Clevis Hitch wrote:Why are the board members not directly elected by climbers?
This is a straight question that deserves a straight, simple, answer. Here it is - RRGCC Board members are not directly elected by climbers because the original founders of the RRGCC chose to use the "non-membership" model in setting up the organization. This is a common model for small non-profits. The way I like to explain it is that the RRGCC is a company, not a government. When I have time after Rocktoberfest, I can get into the benefits of the "non-membership" model if you like.

It may be common. But its not right. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the CC set in response to the closures going on in the NF and they were formed as a USERS GROUP to parlay with the NF because the NF doesn't speak with individuals, it speaks to USERS GROUPS.
As a USERS GROUP, for non-elected members to make arbitrary decisions in the CONSTITUANCY's name. That smells. Why can't we have an elected voice that aids in the decision making process. Why does it have to be unelected czars who make secret decisions for us as climbers.

The last time I checked it said Red River Gorge CLIMBERS Coalition. Plural. If you want to make it the Kool Kids Klimbing club, I'm sure you can. Even though the initials are already taken. I'm sure the Arian Nation won't mind too much
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by neuroshock » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:52 pm

Clevis Hitch wrote:
captain static wrote:
Clevis Hitch wrote:Why are the board members not directly elected by climbers?
This is a straight question that deserves a straight, simple, answer. Here it is - RRGCC Board members are not directly elected by climbers because the original founders of the RRGCC chose to use the "non-membership" model in setting up the organization. This is a common model for small non-profits. The way I like to explain it is that the RRGCC is a company, not a government. When I have time after Rocktoberfest, I can get into the benefits of the "non-membership" model if you like.
It may be common. But its not right. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the CC set in response to the closures going on in the NF and they were formed as a USERS GROUP to parlay with the NF because the NF doesn't speak with individuals, it speaks to USERS GROUPS.
As a USERS GROUP, for non-elected members to make arbitrary decisions in the CONSTITUANCY's name. That smells. Why can't we have an elected voice that aids in the decision making process. Why does it have to be unelected czars who make secret decisions for us as climbers.

The last time I checked it said Red River Gorge CLIMBERS Coalition. Plural. If you want to make it the Kool Kids Klimbing club, I'm sure you can. Even though the initials are already taken. I'm sure the Arian Nation won't mind too much
Clevis, I just want to get a better idea of what you're looking for. If the BoD were elected and decisions were still made against your personal desires/recommendations, would it just be easier to stomach?

As for your claim of "arbitrary decisions in the CONSTITUANCY's name," even if there was an elected individual, or BoD as a whole, the decisions would still be "arbitrary."

In your mind, who would be eligible to be on a ballot? What would qualify the person, aside from a willingness to work and taking heat (appropriate or not)? Who would be eligible to vote? I agree with RRO that an election would likely be a popularity contest, not necessarily a search for the best skill set for the issues at hand.

I'm not, and likely never will be, on the BoD.

-Mike

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Toad
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by Toad » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:00 pm

Start your own organization.
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by rhunt » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:26 pm

Clevis Hitch wrote:
captain static wrote:
Clevis Hitch wrote:Why are the board members not directly elected by climbers?
This is a straight question that deserves a straight, simple, answer. Here it is - RRGCC Board members are not directly elected by climbers because the original founders of the RRGCC chose to use the "non-membership" model in setting up the organization. This is a common model for small non-profits. The way I like to explain it is that the RRGCC is a company, not a government. When I have time after Rocktoberfest, I can get into the benefits of the "non-membership" model if you like.

It may be common. But its not right. Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the CC set in response to the closures going on in the NF and they were formed as a USERS GROUP to parlay with the NF because the NF doesn't speak with individuals, it speaks to USERS GROUPS.
As a USERS GROUP, for non-elected members to make arbitrary decisions in the CONSTITUANCY's name. That smells. Why can't we have an elected voice that aids in the decision making process. Why does it have to be unelected czars who make secret decisions for us as climbers.

The last time I checked it said Red River Gorge CLIMBERS Coalition. Plural. If you want to make it the Kool Kids Klimbing club, I'm sure you can. Even though the initials are already taken. I'm sure the Arian Nation won't mind too much
captain static gave you the official answer yet you still had to be argumentative which is contradictory to you original post. You got your answer - leave it at that. Anything more and you will be starting the flame war your said you wanted to avoid. If you don't like the official answer take it up in private.

***I am not speaking as a BOD member or RRGCC representative, in fact I am not even a current member - which I needs to change.***
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by captain static » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:43 pm

RRGCC By Laws wrote:SECTION 2.2: Specific Purpose. The Red River Gorge Climbers’ Coalition was formed to ensure open public access to quality, climbing opportunities for the benefit of the recreating climbing public in, and around, the Red River Gorge of Kentucky on public and private land, while encouraging the conservation of the natural environment by protecting, promoting, and ensuring responsible climbing.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh

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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Question for the CC

Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:51 pm

Saying that the CC is a company is a mis-statement.

The climbers coalition was formed to parlay as a users group which morphed into a charity/non-profit. Now you're saying its a company and not in the business of governance, but with the LAC going through (if it ever progresses) the Climbers coalition will be in the position of "Governing" the climbing public...

Saying that you don't do it isn't an answer. Its a statement. It doesn't answer the question or even properly acknowledge the question. It just says, (and I'm paraphrasing here); "Because we don't want to."

So once again I'll ask a straightforward question. "Why are the board members not directly elected by climbers?
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

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