Rap vs. Lower

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Andrew
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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by Andrew » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:09 pm

mike_a_lafontaine wrote:
Andrew wrote:I guess all those times I have set a rappel line from the anchors on routes that were not vertical most have been in my imagination as well.

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Shamis
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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by Shamis » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:32 pm

I think the dangers associated with multi-pitch rappelling are what gives rappelling the title of being the most dangerous. And nearly all of those perceived dangers only exist because people still refuse to tie a knot in the end of the rope.

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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by gripster » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:39 pm

i prefer to rap if i can for the reason previously stated, i am in control of my descent, not the belayer. i follow pretty much the exact steps the OP outlined, testing the direct anchor, then testing the rappel setup. It isn't any more dangerous, it is easier on the anchors, and most importantly i am in control of my own life, i like that. sometimes you have to lower to clean, i understand that. why are we arguing about this anyways? isn't it a matter of personal preference (other than the obvious anchor wear?). Do what you want, none of it is 100% safe, so is the nature of the beast.

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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by milspecmark » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:33 pm

For whatever it is worth, I do it just like you except that I tie the knot to my harness vs. the anchors. I see no differance in safety vs. lowering.

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bcombs
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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by bcombs » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:42 pm

Usually it goes like this...

Step 1: Grunt to the 3rd or 4th bolt. Yell "Take".
Step 2: Brush
Step 3: Grunt one bolt at a time until I reach bolt n (the highest bolt). Between each bolt yell "take" and brush. Occasionally go in direct.
Step 4: Yell "dirt".

Of course this only works on routes that are equipped. Based on recent conversation, half the Red will be equipped here soon, so I'm all set.

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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by Andrew » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:12 pm

I agree with bcombs, this is usually my process also.
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pigsteak
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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by pigsteak » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:38 pm

that's becasue you guys suck. I have never weighted a bolt in the Red except for at the chains...ever. I onsight everything I decide to get on..just the way it is boyzzzzz.
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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by KD » Thu Oct 07, 2010 5:56 pm

Alright where's Redpoint?

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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by lena_chita » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:26 pm

mike_a_lafontaine wrote:So I guess in my mind, the most dangerous part of this is when, while I am in direct, I untie from my knot to pass the rope through the rap rings, but I have to do this even if I am lowering, so at the very least, the most dangerous step for rapping is common to both practices. Am I wrong about this? Is there a hidden danger that I am not seeing?
You are wrong in your assumption that you HAVE to do it that way when lowering. In 99% of the cases the rings/quicklinks at the anchors are big enough to put a bight of rope through them. In that case, if I am planning to lower, i do not untie. After i go in direct, I put a bight of rope through the anchors, tie a figure 8 on the bight, and clip it with a locking binner to my belay loop. Now I am already on a toprope through the anchors, before I untie my original figure 8. Inever ever call "off belay" when I am at the top, I only ask for slack, and I am connected to the rope at all times.

Of course, when done correctly, rappel is safe. And most of the danger of rappel, statistically, comes into play on multi-pitch climbs.

But the fact remains that of all SINGLE-PITCH accidents that I have heard of, that have happened after the climber finished the climb ( e.i. not a climber taking a fall and decking due to belayer mistake, or slamming into wall, or being hit by rocks, etc. etc.), by far the most of them were due to the climber at the top going off belay and doing something rappell-related, either not setting up the rappell correctly, or rapping off the end of the ropes. And the next-most-common are due to the climber/belayer miscommunication (saying off belay and then not confirming on belay, not weighting the rope to test it, before going off direct, etc.)

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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by One-Fall » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:43 pm

Toad wrote:When a person rappels, it just the weight of one body on the anchors. When being lowered, it's the combined weight of the belayer and climber and then some.

Can you explain this further? Isn't the belayer's weight being taken by the ground, and not the chains, when lowering a climber?
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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by Brentucky » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:47 pm

pigsteak wrote:that's becasue you guys suck. I have never weighted a bolt in the Red except for at the chains...ever. I onsight everything I decide to get on..just the way it is boyzzzzz.
yeah, but let's get to the important part, did your belayer use a grigri or an atc?
efil lanrete... i enjoy the sound, but in truth i find this seductively backward idea to be quite frightening

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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by tbwilsonky » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:55 pm

One-Fall wrote:
Toad wrote:When a person rappels, it just the weight of one body on the anchors. When being lowered, it's the combined weight of the belayer and climber and then some.
Can you explain this further? Isn't the belayer's weight being taken by the ground, and not the chains, when lowering a climber?
after you explain to the highly coveted but rarely seen aerial lower could you also explain "then some"? is that like dark matter? if so, could you also please explain dark matter.

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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by rhunt » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:28 pm

I don't care what way you do it - you can hand over hand down the rope - just please stop getting hurt while climbing so the crags can remain open for at least one more year.
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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by Toad » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:17 pm

The belayer is a force counterweight when lowering the climber. If the belayer isn't exerting at least as much force (and then some) on their side of the rope as that on the climbers side, the belayer would rise off the ground and not much lowering would get done.


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Re: Rap vs. Lower

Post by tbwilsonky » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:35 pm

sorry. i was just being a di... scientist. technically the load would be the climber's weight x 2 to provide the tension necessary for the counter weight. there is some 'then some', but it is mostly dynamic stresses rather than a 'force' generated by the belayer.
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