Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Problem

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jenbongo
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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by jenbongo » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:16 pm

How much should I donate?
As much as I can?
As much as it's worth to me?
As much as my friend donated?
The cost of equipping a route?
My share?
Total maintenance expenses/number of climbers?
Total expenses/number of people who actually donate?
Estimated cost per climb? . . . per time lowered off of anchors? . . . per fall on pre-hung draws? . . . per drive into Muir Valley? . . . per year for payment on PMRP? . . . per day?
People could use any of these questions to decide on an amount, but I don't know the answer to most of these questions, and I suspect most people who donate little or nothing don't know either. If anyone can enlighten us a little, that might also help (along with getting the word out to donate in general) to encourage a lot of people to donate more or do more trail days. (BTW, how much is a trail day worth?) And I'm sure the answers are different for the PMRP, Muir, the steel draws fund, etc.

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by jayh » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:17 pm

KD wrote:In all seriousness the overuse problem would diminish drastically if all bolts on climbs under 5.12 were stripped and people had to provide their own protection once again. This form (traditional, natural protection) was used successfully for a long time until the Bolt-a-thon and the rise of gym climbers in the Red. Make them provide their own pro and the college-type know-it-all hippies will go back to their gyms with their joints, guitars, bongos, Westies, Rusted Root cd's and their poop. It is probably the ultimate course as far as the Feds go assuming the usage of resources continues to climb at the current rate and with all the recent accidents and fatalities, it is probably for the best anyway. The crowds would either climb harder and smarter or tape up for the traditional way. In either case, this would thin things out a lot and give nature a chance to recover as well.
KD, when did you start climbing and what was your introduction to the Red?

I'm just now getting outside, and dont feel like 5.12 is a grade I'm ready to take on when I'm outside but I still want to get there. Reading through the guidebook there are all kinds of 4 star routes below 5.12 that have been bolted since 1991. Is this the big bolt-a-thon you talk about?

The only fatalities I found by searching this board involved experienced climbers, one was a rigging failure and the other was a ground fall on 5.12 that was said to be withing the climbers ability.

The way I see it, stripping the routes of 5.12 or lower will only ensure that when an idiot ties in through their leg loop, they'll be hopping on a 5.12 and not a 5.9...

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by DriskellHR » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:10 pm

looks like you got anotherone KD
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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by KD » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:55 pm

jayh wrote:
KD wrote:In all seriousness the overuse problem would diminish drastically if all bolts on climbs under 5.12 were stripped and people had to provide their own protection once again. This form (traditional, natural protection) was used successfully for a long time until the Bolt-a-thon and the rise of gym climbers in the Red. Make them provide their own pro and the college-type know-it-all hippies will go back to their gyms with their joints, guitars, bongos, Westies, Rusted Root cd's and their poop. It is probably the ultimate course as far as the Feds go assuming the usage of resources continues to climb at the current rate and with all the recent accidents and fatalities, it is probably for the best anyway. The crowds would either climb harder and smarter or tape up for the traditional way. In either case, this would thin things out a lot and give nature a chance to recover as well.
KD, when did you start climbing and what was your introduction to the Red?

I'm just now getting outside, and dont feel like 5.12 is a grade I'm ready to take on when I'm outside but I still want to get there. Reading through the guidebook there are all kinds of 4 star routes below 5.12 that have been bolted since 1991. Is this the big bolt-a-thon you talk about?

The only fatalities I found by searching this board involved experienced climbers, one was a rigging failure and the other was a ground fall on 5.12 that was said to be withing the climbers ability.

The way I see it, stripping the routes of 5.12 or lower will only ensure that when an idiot ties in through their leg loop, they'll be hopping on a 5.12 and not a 5.9...
There is plenty of really cool things to climb without bolts in the Red. The Bolt-a-thon is when we skyrocketed from 500 or so routes to god knows how many now ...is it 2000 yet? We are grid bolting almost in some places. That brings crowds and crowds poop. I am saying that going retro back to traditional lines would get the crowd factor reduced greatly while requiring responsible climbing because you'd have to place and fall on your own gear. Same climbing, same grades, same coolness factor, just on your own gear that you placed.

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by KD » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:02 pm

DriskellHR wrote:looks like you got anotherone KD
hmmmm do you think I should stick with the "jus kidding" scenerio?

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by rhunt » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:31 pm

KD - I like what you are getting at. If they bolt it, they will come....and in masses they did! Your solution, although sadly unrealistic, would probably fix the problem. We probably should start a new thread...money and trail days won't fix this problem.
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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by pigsteak » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:43 pm

amazing how old and crotchety people get when they quit climbing. yes, talking to both of you.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by rhunt » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:47 pm

What ever piggie - I will be down this weekend to snake all your red tag routes.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by dollyjn » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:51 pm

If all would pitch in one thing each time you visit or use the land in any way, whether it be cleaning up around you, keeping up your own trash, paying a donation (best), providing some stewardship, anything as often as you visit. Pride and Respect in the land we have as a privilege to use warrants acknowledgement. So pitch in often, and ANYWHERE you go in the Red River Gorge area. We love our home!

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by Clevis Hitch » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:47 pm

There is an estimated 3500 miles of climbable cliffline in eastern Kentucky alone. The answer is diversification. The answer is more bolts and better education. How about some "rock stars" giving an "assembly" in high schools with a climbing wall and video presentation. All of the bolting efforts have been concentrated in a really small area. What really needs to happen is finish the stalled LAC process and get the N.F. and the CC on the same page

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by captain static » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:21 pm

Clevis Hitch wrote:What really needs to happen is finish the stalled LAC process and get the N.F. and the CC on the same page
The LAC process is not stalled. Just slow in moving. A most significant input from LAC coming from the locals was the FS doesn't need more rules, they just need to enforce the existing rules. That is why there has been stepped up enforcement on camping too close to trails & alcohol, etc. Steps towards a Climbing Management Plan are slowly proceeding as are steps towards a Camping Management Plan. Financial resources to implement either of these plans will be a challenge. As far as the Climbing Management Plan here is the outline. Once a draft CMP is developed, it will be presented at a Coalition meeting for input before final submittal to the USFS for review and public input.
Red River Gorge Draft Climbing Management Plan and Environmental Assessment Outline wrote: Part I – Climbing Management Plan
1.0 Introduction
2.0 Climbing Management Plan
2.1 Purpose and Need
2.2 Regulatory Authority, Policy, & Guidance
2.2.1 Land and Resource Management Plan for the Daniel Boone National Forest
2.2.2 Limits of Acceptable Change
2.3 Goals and Objectives
2.4 Red River Gorge Climbing History
2.5 Natural and Biological Resources
2.6 Cultural Resources
2.7 Limits of Acceptable Change and Opportunity Zones
2.8 Inventory and Assessment of Existing Climbing Areas
2.8.1 Natural and Biological Resources
2.8.2 Cultural Resources
2.8.3 Limits of Acceptable Change and Resource Standards
2.8.4 Limits of Acceptable Change and Social Standards
2.9 Inventory and Assessment of Trail Access to Existing Climbing Areas
2.9.1 System Trails
2.9.2 User-Created Trails
2.10 Limits of Acceptable Change and Management Actions
2.10.1 Climbing Areas & Climbsites
2.10.2 System Trails & User Trails
2.11 Climbing Development Guidelines and Procedures
2.12 Access Trail Development Guidelines and Procedures
2.13 Public Participation
3.0 CMP Implementation and Monitoring
3.1 Partnerships
3.2 User Education
3.3 Climbing Area and Access Trail Maintenance
3.4 Climbing and Access Trail Development
3.5 Commercial Guiding / Group Use
3.6 Monitoring of Resource and Social Indicators

Part II - Environmental Assessment
1.0 Introduction
2.0 Affected Environment
2.1 Natural and Biological Resources
2.2 Cultural Resources
2.3 Visitor Use and Experience
3.0 Management Issues
4.0 Alternatives
4.1 Alternative A – No Action (Management without CMP)
4.2 Alternative B – CMP with No New Climbing Areas
4.3 Alternative C – CMP with New Climbing Areas (Preferred Alternative)
5.0 Environmental Consequences
5.1 Alternative A – No Action (Management without CMP)
5.2 Alternative B – CMP with No New Climbing Areas
5.3 Alternative C – CMP with New Climbing Areas (Preferred Alternative)

Part III – Preparers, References, & Appendices
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by dustonian » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:27 pm

Glad to hear this is still creeping forward, Bill...pretty exciting news.

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by pigsteak » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:36 pm

dustonian wrote:Glad to hear this is still creeping forward, Bill...pretty exciting news.

if you like watching paint dry....
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by dustonian » Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:42 pm

Yeah, I like watching water boil & bacteria grow, too...lab research is a real thrillfest that way sometimes! This is also why I enjoy using glue-ins so much as well.

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Re: Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Proble

Post by mike_a_lafontaine » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:10 am

dustonian wrote:Yeah, I like watching water boil & bacteria grow, too...lab research is a real thrillfest that way sometimes! This is also why I enjoy using glue-ins so much as well.
Watching bacteria grow is horrible. It means my tissue cultures are fucked.

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