Miguels raising money for steel

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Miguels raising money for steel

Post by local » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:25 am

This coming Halloween weekend Miguels will be having a fund raiser to raise Money for steel draws. Saturday night please join us for a pig roast, Costume contest, music,and a presentation by Ethan Plingle .... Starts around 6:00. The plan is to raise money so there will be free steel draws at all time behind the counter at miguels. This hopefully will encourage people to replace sketchy draws. Hope to see all.....thanks miguel's

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by dustonian » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:01 pm

Free steel draws at all times? Is that even possible? You know those things are $13-15+ a pop and get grooved out too right? Anyway, great idea but maybe a bit utopian... Maybe better just to make a donation to Team Suck?

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by bcombs » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:06 pm

I'm curious, who is driving the Team Suck initiative right now?

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by Artsay » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:53 pm

dustonian - I'm pretty sure draws are permenantly up on certain routes now "at all times". Go to any steep cliff and look around. Not sure about you but I would much rather climb on fixed steel draws than someone else's leaver draws (with aluminum biners). Also, ClimbTech is giving our community a great deal on their perma draws so it's more like $10 a pop, not $13-15. If all that comes of this effort is replacing all the existing fixed aluminum gear on routes then we did good. FYI, Muir Valley recently saw the same upgrade and the steel draws are very nice (all existing fixed draws were stripped and replaced with steel - Go Rick and friends!)

Draws will always be up on the steep routes at the Red because it's the culture that has been created here. And with more and more folks coming to the Red, climbing incidents involving worn out aluminum gear will only increase. Props to Dario for the fundraising effort! There's another thread asking for donations to buy draws but please contribute to Dario's fundraiser first. Any monies I receive will purchase draws and get them in the hands of folks at both Muir and Miguel's for equipping routes in need. http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtop ... 30#p235330

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by drifter » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:16 pm

hey Dario,

I can't make it this weekend but I'll kick in $100 for the cause. Is there an easy way to get the money to you?

Brent from Atlanta.

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by local » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:08 pm

i will put up an extra 100...get me when you come up next. ...Thanks brent. thank you MIchelle for your support. The money we raise will purchase Climbtech draws from you. And trust me i think most routes you should hang your own draws....but places like the load cave its not going to happen. I hope that my effort to contribute is not taken wrong....

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by allah » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:14 pm

You go big D!!! Love ya man ;)

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by pigsteak » Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:48 pm

dario and others...perhaps contemplate just a single fixed draw in the middle of the overhanging routes that need cleaning help. and perhaps on the anchors....
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:19 pm

For what little it may be worth, I'm with pigsteak on this one. Dario, I appreciate the effort that you and others are putting into this, and don't get me wrong it's been really nice having some of these steel draws on some of the routes I've been working lately. But I think the real answer in all of this is education. Could we maybe take some of this money and make flyers or posters or something we could post at Miggy's and other campgrounds informing the community what they should be looking for? I know I've been a lot more prudent lately checking EVERY piece that I clip into and because of this, I've ended up sacrificing a lot of gear recently. Steel draws will take longer to wear and I understand where you're coming from, but if that isn't also supplemented with education, then we're only delaying the inevitable. I know I inform people just about every weekend who are unaware that they should be checking this gear. I'll even be willing to help in this education step if wanted/needed. Just my two cents.
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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by Artsay » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:26 pm

Many thanks to those that donated already, every bit is appreciated.
A PayPal donation link was posted in another thread but here it is again: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/websc ... 52660ea0cd

Dario nailed it...this isn't to get draws on all routes at the Red for convenience, just for the ones that always see fixed gear anyways to hopefully reduce hardware related climbing accidents in the future.
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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:35 pm

Thanks Artsay! I will donate and I understand what is being done and why. I just feel this is step one to making the Red safer, and I would like to see us take the initiative and not stop there! I hope my post didn't come off as trying to start a debate I am just hoping that we continue to do all we can. Not saying what is going on is bad, it just could be supplemented to make it better! If anyone agrees you can PM me and maybe we can toss some ideas around.
I fell for the everyone-shut-up-and-ill-donate-money scheme. -Ray Ellington, guidebook gawd

My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by Artsay » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:12 pm

Rotarypwr345704 - I agree with you completely (and piggy too for that matter). This weekend I saw someone take close to a factor 2 fall on Omaha at the Lode (climber ran out last two bolts and intentionally took a huge whipper, landing down in the bottom of the gully well below the belayer who got jacked up to the first bolt). Did they inspect the hardware before taking their leap of faith? Will they retire their rope from the fall? Do they even know what a factor 2 fall is???

Aluminum climbing hardware just doesn't cut it for this form of climbing (fall after fall after fall.....) and proper climbing education isn't being instilled by the climbing gyms breeding climbers these days. I don't know what the solution is but there's some crazy stuff going on in the Red these days....
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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by dustonian » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:30 pm

I love fixed steel draws as much as the next guy (Rifle and Maple are super nice now... all equipped and pimped out, even the 5.11's). But steel can wear huge grooves and get razor sharp too... if you doubt this go take a look at the first draw on Convicted. A lot of people seem to think steel is the answer is to many of the safety issues in the Red, but the fact of the matter is it is far from bombproof too (especially under the stress of lowering with abrasive RRG sand), and if equipping routes with "permanent-looking" steel draw and with quicklinks on the bolt hanger is going to encourage complacency, then in fact it is more dangerous. Steel draws still need to be inspected before blindly whipping on them just like aluminum draws... it is not a magical cure-all.

That said, new draws at Lode and other places would be nice and this is a great initiative. But I just feel things need to be kept in perspective regarding this perma-draw fad currently sweeping through the Red... it does not absolve the climber from the responsibility of checking what he or she clips. Ultimately I think a more "holisitic" approach to gear maintenance including bolts, quicklinks, dogbones, AND biners is better than just oversimplifying the matter and re-equipping everything with steel draws that a lot of people are now going to blindly trust forever without inspection (not that they don't do that anyway). Or better yet, just hang your own draws... it's really not that bad on 98% of routes.

Also, there is no way the fall you describe is anywhere near factor 2. Say you fall 199' on 200' of rope (the absolute worst you can do on a vertical route if the ground is level)... that's still less than factor 1. I hear what you're saying about the ground being lower than the belayer in the Lode, but the routes are a lot steeper too, so there is more rope out (ie. you fall vertically, but the rope runs nearly horizontally in many sections of the Madness cave).

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by clif » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:36 pm

could one fall 60 feet on 30 feet of rope?
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: Miguels raising money for steel

Post by dustonian » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:39 pm

Only on multipitch routes with no gear between the climber and belayer. Factor two can't really happen single-pitch climbing unless the climber falls in a bottomless pit and belayer stays up above... basically you would hit the deck long before any sort of factor two forces could be generated.

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