Accident tally??

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rhunt
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Accident tally??

Post by rhunt » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:09 pm

It's mid March and we are at three accidents so far...that I know of. Any stat minded people out there want to start a basic excel spreadsheet and keep track of accidents this year. Track things like, major contributing factors(ie bad belay), minor contributing factors(barking dogs and crying children), severity of injury, type of climb(sport of trad) experience level of climbers etc ,etc. I would love to look back at a year and see what is really going on. Maybe it is just the fact that there are more climbers thus more accident. Maybe crag/cliff traffic has reached an unsafe level and the sheer number of climbers at a given cliff/crag is a major contributing factor to accidents....for example.

I know, you ask, why don't you do it rhunt...well I guess I would but I suck at excel spreadsheet. Maybe if someone writes the spreadsheet for me I can add to it. But maybe a better idea is we keep a spreadsheet on this site and everyone can contribute to it.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist

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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by Clevis Hitch » Sun May 08, 2011 10:37 pm

I think its just becoming more known when people get hurt. I know lots of people who busted their ankles,knees and legs and it never was a big deal. Now somebody gets a boo boo and its a full on rescue effort. Where as before you'd just walk out and drive to Winchester.
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

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caribe
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by caribe » Mon May 09, 2011 6:06 am

no. Joey this is not it. The recent accident was criminal negligence. Back in the day belaying was a higher office than it is now.

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climb2core
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by climb2core » Mon May 09, 2011 8:53 am

Unless you intentionally drop someone I don't think you can call it criminal in the case of belayer error. It would be pretty easy to put responsibility back upon the climber. He chose to climb, know in inherent risks of sport. He failed to communicate with his belayer when starting to climb again. As Piggie pointed out, you need to let your belayer know what you are doing and when you are moving. This becomes even more important when you are not weighting the rope as the belayer can't feel when begin to climb again. Don't get me wrong... I think the belayer was totally negligent and should pay the guys bills, but I doubt you could consider it criminal.

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caribe
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by caribe » Mon May 09, 2011 9:14 am

climb2core wrote: . . . but I doubt you could consider it criminal.
Yes, Please do not take this literally. If he/she/it dropped me I would not feel that I could pursue the belayer in court. OK what about blatant negligence. When one says on belay, you are on freaking belay until 'off belay' is agreed on my both parties. :| That is the contract as I understand it.
It is a good idea for the climber to say 'climbing' or 'moving' or 'watch-me' after a respite, but the belayer needs to be vigilant. The climber's silence in no way mitigates the severity of the negligent belaying. The belayer in this case is in breach of contract.

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climb2core
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by climb2core » Mon May 09, 2011 9:39 am

Agreed on the belayer breaching contract and being negligent. Disagreed on the climber not being negligent. It is a breach of the contract to fail to communicate with your belayer. Climbing is ALWAYS a TEAM endeavor. This accident could have been avoided by EITHER party doing their job properly.

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dollyjn
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by dollyjn » Mon May 09, 2011 9:46 am

Over the past few years, I've seen increased incidence of 'on belay' not paying attention at all for a variety of reasons.
Check yourselves. It's a job of personal responsibility.
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caribe
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by caribe » Mon May 09, 2011 9:48 am

Climb2core: You are not thinking about this seriously. I would feel comfortable belaying somebody who does not have the ability to speak. Dropping someone 30 ft, 3/4 of the way up the route is ridiculous. Because the climber did not say 'simon says' does not transfer any blame to the climber. I am not sure if it gets more cut and dried than this.

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Re: Accident tally??

Post by krampus » Mon May 09, 2011 10:03 am

Caribe is right, I usually rest my neck when my climber is resting. But the climber would never dever deck because he failed to tell me he was back on the wall, he may get short roped though
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared

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climb2core
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by climb2core » Mon May 09, 2011 10:13 am

No, I DO get it. We just disagree about the climber accepting some responsibility. Communication doesn't have to be verbal, and if I was mute, I would find an alternative method of communicating with my belayer. This accident was preventable by the climber doing a better job. It was also preventable by the belayer doing a better job.

Once I had a belayer misfeed a rope backwards through a gri-gri. They caught me when I fell because they were using the brake hand properly. However, it was MY fault as much as it was their fault as I didn't visually inspect and confirm that it was ok. As a climber you need to do everything that can be reasonably done to ensure your own safety. I take personal ownership in the belaying process to facilitate a safe belay. I guess you just hope the guy is on the ball. To each their own.

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climb2core
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by climb2core » Mon May 09, 2011 10:17 am

krampus wrote:Caribe is right, I usually rest my neck when my climber is resting. But the climber would never dever deck because he failed to tell me he was back on the wall, he may get short roped though
We all look down when the climber is resting. I always tell my climber to tell me when they are ready to start and then confirm that I heard them. If my climber doesn't tell me, I give them shit and ask them too.

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pigsteak
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by pigsteak » Mon May 09, 2011 11:06 am

caribe..I disagree in that the latest accident the climber had not climbed with the guy belaying before. The climber should accept his part of the blame in that. Never trust your life to someone you do not know. Pay his medical bills? Crazy talk.
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caribe
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by caribe » Mon May 09, 2011 11:09 am

climb2core wrote:Once I had a belayer misfeed a rope backwards through a gri-gri. They caught me when I fell because they were using the brake hand properly. However, it was MY fault as much as it was their fault as I didn't visually inspect and confirm that it was ok.
Yes, if protocol was broken when you were both on the ground you are partially to blame. We are to check each other; that is SOP to optimize safety. This statement has little to do with the point being debated. When 'on belay' is called you are on belay until 'off belay' is called. You should be able to fall and be caught at anytime between those two commands. This issue is ~100% bad belaying.

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caribe
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by caribe » Mon May 09, 2011 11:15 am

pigsteak wrote:caribe..I disagree in that the latest accident the climber had not climbed with the guy belaying before. The climber should accept his part of the blame in that. Never trust your life to someone you do not know.
Yes, you are right. I would not give the other end of the rope to a five-year-old or a circus clown. Sometimes people look capable when they are not. The fatal incident at the Darkside last year was the same issue: bad belaying from a bad belayer chosen blindly from the masses. Accepting blame for trusting the unknown is something I can get on board with. Accepting blame in this instance because you didn't say something while you were climbing is ENTIRELY another matter.

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climb2core
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Re: Accident tally??

Post by climb2core » Mon May 09, 2011 11:17 am

Yes, 100% bad belaying. But how can you ignore this question: "Was their anything that the climber could have reasonably done to prevent himself from getting hurt?" If yes, then there has to be some culpability on the end of the climber. Telling your belayer when climbing again IS standard practice and this is EXACTLY the reason why it is done. Communication becomes even more important when you don't know your belayer. Also, my point about the gri gri is relevant... It is about the climber taking an active role in THEIR safety and not assuming anything, ever. Build safety and redundancy into all aspects of your climbing and almost all of the accidents would have been prevented. Period.

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