had close call recently

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Josephine
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Re: had close call recently

Post by Josephine » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:59 pm

i liked the way i learned trad: TR belay AND a lead belay. when i was safe enough off the deck, i would take intentional lead falls on my pieces. originally i had 2 belayers (one for each rope), but when craig leuben did it, he managed to belay both ropes himself.

sorry it was a shaky experience & glad you're both ok :-)
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clif
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Re: had close call recently

Post by clif » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:59 pm

dustonian wrote:Always better to do a mock lead so you can assess your mentee's gear placements before he gets in over his head. You would also have been able to monitor his rope management from the ground. This is standard operating procedure when guiding someone who wants to learn traditional leading. Just glad to hear you guys didn't add to the already ridiculous injury/rescue tally in that particular region.
Dustonian, please help me understand this, what is a mock lead as distinguished from what Caribe described? And, how is it that you determine that Caribe could not have monitored the rope management, or are you speaking theoretically? And, for 'standard operating procedure', wow, really? If this is true, is this privileged information or can you share the source? Or, what in your mind makes it 'standardized'?
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caribe
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Re: had close call recently

Post by caribe » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:08 pm

I will do a mock lead next time.
Clif, Dusti is talking about two ropes.
I have belayed people mock leading trad before, but it is very similar to TR if you ask me. Still a good idea. The climber has to use the other hand to place gear.

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clif
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Re: had close call recently

Post by clif » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:14 pm

hmm. if gear placement was the question...

two ropes v. tr burn seems a niggling distinction, esp. before the first piece is clipped v. lots of rope out.
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Re: had close call recently

Post by Rocky Top » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:37 pm

Man, glad you guys are okay; having a kid should (or did in my case) made me a little tentative to get after it, I'm still not good with a lot of whippers and he's 2 now so I guess it might just be me; but this reminds me of eons ago when we were climbing in a big crew with a new kid (19 in this case).

Kid was hot stuff; tr'ed couple 10, 10+ and even an 11c his first day, no falls iirc, because you couldn't get back on. End of the day, mandatory climb back out (5.9 bolted)-long story, some gorge place way out west- and 5 guys, sandbaggers all imo are trying to get the kid to do his first lead.

Me the voice of reason, listing out why not---no mocks, no knowledge of how to clip really, end of the day, blah blah, but does the kid listen? You can guess not. After all, one of the baggers just led it in Tevas....

At least I was belaying, hesistantly though...knew it could get ugly...to his credit he made it past the grounder at the 2nd bolt looking shaky, but got to the third, rope behind leg, can't pull to clip, can't move, can't do anything by shake shake shimmy until he blew off, taking a spectacular head firster, slamming back in as soft as I could make it without any chance of cratering---still pretty bad. Black and blue, swole right up, we got him out okay and I didn't really climb much with that crew afterwards...

I think the way Josephine describes is "best practice"...

Just witnessed a super clutch catch, saving a broken leg for sure...new leader missed anchors, ran out a wide section, placed their only big piece and then couldn't clip. Went for a flyer! nearly cratered on the ledge, but so cavalier about it. Definitely would have been a trip to the hospital with a "rifle aka red" loop....stay safe folks!

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Re: had close call recently

Post by pru » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:18 pm

I didn't read all the comments, but Art I had a similar experience once. I let a good friend and regular climbing partner lead on my pre-placed gear. He had a bad fall at the top of Father and Son. His foot stayed in the crack and he fell below it (because he did this weird high step foot jam...). Fortunately my pieces were bomber, and I sewed it up, too. The gear stayed put, but the tendons pulled bone from his ankle. It was a rough carry out. He hasn't climbed since... My take away from that was that I would NEVER let anyone lead on my gear again, even though it wasn't a factor in his injuries. But what if it had been? I would have never forgiven myself, even though I have zero doubts about my gear placement ability. And the reason behind my confidence (or former confidence, heh, since I don't climb anymore) was that I followed and cleaned for a long time before I ever led my first trad route. And even after all the time following, I paid for and took guided instruction - twice (totalling 4 days) - before I did. I think following and cleaning teaches budding trad leaders more about gear placement than leading on someone else's gear. (I continue to analyze other people's placements when I clean.) The the next step would be going up on top rope while placing gear and having a competent leader follow and critique each piece. Some people pick it up quicker than others and you can't spend too much time learning this stuff correctly. Just my 2 cents, unadjusted for inflation
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Re: had close call recently

Post by caribe » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:04 pm

Well, I easily got the worst of the fall, but I am already healing. Yesterday Pig Steak said, "I am limping a bit" and I said, "I am?"

- I posted to inform and get opinions. What I learned from you guys is that I rushed it. I was impressed with my partner's float on TR and thought he was ready to place gear after discussing placement, rock configuration, lobe contact and rock quality and having him hang on some gear and having him inspect my placements. All that prelim stuff can't be enacted without a calm head. Thanks for your opinions and a valuable discussion. We live and I learn . . . just glad we lived. If you are thinking about instructing someone who is gung ho to learn trad think about this discussion; I hope it helped.

- If you have anything that needs to be said please post it. I just thought I would tell you what I concluded out of your posts.

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pigsteak
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Re: had close call recently

Post by pigsteak » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:36 pm

didn't you discern that I said you are still a sport gumball....
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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