Reason.

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Sandman
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Reason.

Post by Sandman » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:19 pm

I should have known the masses of people hiding on the internet would have all sorts of uneducated and ridiculous comments to make. Never being on this website, i only skimmed through the five pages of mostly bullshit because a friend informed me this morning that me and others were referred to as "nazis" (really?). Furthermore, i wont be bothering to read any comments you have to make on the internet regarding the reasons for removing perma-draws, or any other topic. Which is due to the fact that i dont care to have childish, anonymous arguments on the internet. If you have things to say or more, my name is Zac Sands and i am not hard to find if your climbing in the Red.
I fully understand everyone's "what gives you the right" attitude. The CREW of people who stripped those draws (myself included), have no legal or god given "right" to do so. However, anyone else equally has NO right to leave draws... No perma-draws ruins your send or takes you more time?? Well maybe perma-draws ruins my onsight and takes me more time because i have inspect old ratty gear while trying to enjoy a beautiful piece of stone. I will make the statement here and now for everyone involved that the reasoning behind the stripping was not to ruin anyone's climbing day or to hurt there fragile ego when they psychically cant send something with the amazing extra effort it takes to hang and then clip a quickdraw. So, thanks for taking the time during your busy day at the office to read this far, and here is the main reasons. The red in general, some crags more in particular, have become whored out and have turned into everyone's outdoor climbing gym, with ZERO regard to crag and climbing etiquette as well as ethics in particular. This attitude of being able to access and abuse a crag and a route without the ability to even summit/make it to the anchors is totally unnecessary. The MASSES of people who come to lode and other crags with no respect and no knowledge has become simply too much. If you want to climb a route, take responsibility for yourself and realize any consequences. Basically saying... if you cant hang the draws and at least make it to the anchors... you shouldnt be on that route. The general mentality in the Red has evolved into "the worlds biggest climbing gym", where because you payed your $10 to the RRGCC.. you can act how wish, abuse what you want, park where you please, and climb any route because everything is fixed with gear. So why not perma-top ropes, or perma-auto belays, or tape the holds, god forbid you climb something in a good style that you can do in a reasonable amount of effort and time. My point is not coming from the stand point of an elitist asshole, well lets be honest, it is just a little bit. Nevertheless, the "stripping" and others actions that will be taken have the sole purpose of preserving the integrity and ethics of climbing in the Red River Gorge that have been rapidly disappearing. I won't lie, i enjoy perma-draws sometimes on certain routes, especially for training purposes. The thing is.. when it starts to DRASTICALLY effect the crag and access in a very negative way… im willing to make some sacrifices to better the area as a whole. The fact that we have the RRGCC, and that all there efforts have secured so much climbing for everyone is a beautiful thing that warms my cold, hard, draw-stripping heart. My question is… when does there need to be people to help preserve the ethics and take actions to instill them?? The answer is right now. A group of local climbers in the red have had long discussions and decided certain things that need to be done. That will certainly not always produce a happy response from people, and we will never be 100% right and perfect. We now even have stupid link ups, and outsiders bolting routes, chipping holds, and gluing rocks on the wall without some much as asking ANYONE if it is ok (and im not saying they should ask me, so relax a little) What happens when the person fixes gear in the clifty area, or bolts and chips a route on forest service land? It can have a VERY negative response that fucks shit up for everyone. Maybe one little link up is no big deal, but what about when these "jabronies" grid bolt our crags!?? Or start bolting cracks and mixed lines!? So, right or wrong.. me and others will chop the bolts on link ups and on a route(s) that have been extremely manufactured (i.e. "pliedriver" at Shady Grove). I realize the petty drama this will create, I realize that hundreds of hours will be wasted commented on this one post, but i wont read it... I'll be out climbing with other monkeys who care enough to take action and DO SOMETHING other than rant on the internet. We won't be perfect in all our actions, and we may not be the perfect people to do this, maybe others have more of a "right"? But... it's happening. These things will not solve all the problems.. and will create inconveniences for some climbers, myself included. If you climb here enough, then stand up against the destruction of your crags and be willing to take action and make sacrifices. No matter how big or small, climb somewhere else if a crag is overcrowded, leave your six dogs at home, tell people they cant park blocking oil roads, tell them there is NO NEED to heavily chip and glue some shitty piece of rock or link two routes. We have a plethora of some of the best and well featured stone in the world. I take full responsibility for what ive said, what ive done, and what i will do, just keep in mind its not just me who feels this way, and its not just me is taking action. If you desire and need to slander me on the internet, i cant stop you, that is your right as red blooded free American. I would prefer you identify yourself and say it to my face, please dont be petty enough to slash my tires or something. If your emotions are that strong, come hit me in face and try to knock me out with the first punch. I can appreciate a good solid hit. So hang some draws, climb on natural features, have good style, have proper ethics, sack up, be safe and have fun. And by the way, the lode is private property… ever stop to think what the owner wanted for HIS land?????
Its all about Style....

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clif
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Re: Reason.

Post by clif » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:56 pm

interesting mix of courage, conviction, disregard for other people, self-assurance, and for the CREW, anonymity. i hope the plan works.
training is for people who care, i have a job.

AZTED
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Re: Reason.

Post by AZTED » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:11 pm

Hell Yeah!

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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Reason.

Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:13 pm

well, now. It's nice to see someone else traveling down the dark road with me...
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pigsteak
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Re: Reason.

Post by pigsteak » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:27 pm

must be an age thing...once folks hit around thirty, they become disillusioned....
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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ynp1
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Re: Reason.

Post by ynp1 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:35 pm

Bolt wars back in the day and now perma-draw wars! Kind of funny... Good on you zack, at least you talk with more action then words!
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pigsteak
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Re: Reason.

Post by pigsteak » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:25 pm

which start to southern smoke gets pulled? which variation of fifty words gets pulled?
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Pumpkin
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Re: Reason.

Post by Pumpkin » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:29 pm

pigsteak wrote:which start to southern smoke gets pulled? which variation of fifty words gets pulled?
The right one should get pulled for both....at least make the hard routes legitimately hard!

kneebar
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Re: Reason.

Post by kneebar » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:27 am

Just leave the words ethics and style out of all discussions please unless you put personal in front of it. It's all about a personal choice of ethics and style of a small group of individuals that has made for the entire climbing community. Why wasn't this discussion going on when a different small group was raising money for permanent draws? This is really no different then one person making a decision for a hundred. Just a group making it for a thousand or more.

Personally, I would jump on the bandwagon if project draws were banned from every route for any length of time including overnight or if you walk away for an hour. Its all booty at that point. At the very least it would be a definitive line drawn in the sand.(pardon the pun Zac) You walk up to every cliff knowing you have to hang and clean every route you do for the day including your 5.14 project. You might even have to take two ropes to get down.......sounds kind of ridiculous needing to do that right. But it would be the "right" thing to do if you want to be an elitest. It would put every climber that comes to the red on the same playing field no matter how long they visit. Whether it is for a weekend or a hundred years.

But then again I would be cool putting permanent draws on everything also.

Ken

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pigsteak
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Re: Reason.

Post by pigsteak » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:35 am

my how far you have fallen ken;) they will welcome you with open arms in colorado with that sportso attitude.

you know really the action to equip the Lode with PD's last year was no different than the recent decision to strip it....in fact, doesnt it hit anyone as funny that dario helped with the fundraising, but he was also aware that the walls were going to be stripped? sounds like he lives in my world of duality.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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climb2core
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Re: Reason.

Post by climb2core » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:57 am

pigsteak wrote:my how far you have fallen ken;) they will welcome you with open arms in colorado with that sportso attitude.

you know really the action to equip the Lode with PD's last year was no different than the recent decision to strip it....in fact, doesnt it hit anyone as funny that dario helped with the fundraising, but he was also aware that the walls were going to be stripped? sounds like he lives in my world of duality.
I can't speak for Dario, but based upon his actions I think he tries to help the community of climbers achieve their goals but doesn't want to be actively determining what that course of action should be. He said he would strip the PD's of the NFS... not that bold of an action.

BTW, congrats to Dario on the birth of your child...

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Re: Reason.

Post by kneebar » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:55 pm

pigsteak wrote:my how far you have fallen ken;) they will welcome you with open arms in colorado with that sportso attitude.

you know really the action to equip the Lode with PD's last year was no different than the recent decision to strip it....in fact, doesnt it hit anyone as funny that dario helped with the fundraising, but he was also aware that the walls were going to be stripped? sounds like he lives in my world of duality.

You know it, I most definitely live in a world of duality. Just depends on where it is in the world. in the red anymore......ehh, whatever.

You would be proud of me piggy, I've taken quite a few whippers just trying hard to be a true sporty like you...........but I still don't like it!

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Re: Reason.

Post by pigsteak » Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:51 pm

keep at it my friend......lol
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: Reason.

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:37 pm

kneebar wrote: Why wasn't this discussion going on when a different small group was raising money for permanent draws? This is really no different then one person making a decision for a hundred. Just a group making it for a thousand or more.
Ken
I was one who was questioning the whole perma draw idea when Dario first proposed it. But it seemed as though I was the only one that thought it wasn't such a great idea. If I was in the Gorge, I would help in the stripping of these perma-draws. That said, it is really nice to have some steelies on routes that I get on, but I recognize that it is a convenience and I would and do gladly hang my draws on any route that I want to get on.

Anyway, I don't know what the right answer is here. But I tend to want my climbing to be more of a relationship. Having to put the extra time in on a route hanging your draws, figuring out beta, not sending, cleaning your draws only to do it all again next time. This, for me, allows me to get to know the character of each route that I get on. Maybe it's the inner hippie in me coming out, but I think that's how it SHOULD be. Isn't it about the adventure?
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Re: Reason.

Post by kneebar » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:33 pm

Yea, I heard quite a few climbers voicing there opinion against it at the time. The pig man was one of them, a few others for sure. That was the time to be heard as it still is. It's just the way it was handled, it would be debated for weeks on here, in the end the same thing would happen. But eventually the permanent draws will be back, mark my words.

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