Fixed Gear

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tania
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by tania » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:16 pm

No perma-freakin anything. No aluminum "project" draws, no steel draws, cleaning draws, or cleaning biners/draws. NOTHING!!!! No doubt I have left my draws on a route because I was too lazy to hang/clean them every day, or the whole "I don't want to waste a precious redpoint go hanging the dang draws!!" excuse, but the more people argue about it the more I am against leaving anything. If we want to raise money for gear, raise money for SS bolts/glue and chain and beefy quick-links for the anchors. Everyone keeps talking about always checking a "perma" before clipping it, but how often do you actually look at the freakin bolt or hanger?!?!?! It's no good if the draws are in good shape when the bolts/hangers are super mank and sketch!!!!! Come on people, lets actually focus on the equipment that's more important, SS bolts/hangers/anchors!!!!!
"Life is a balance of holding on and letting go." ~Keith Urban

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pigsteak
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by pigsteak » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:59 pm

i feel like taking a little self indignent piglet under my wing...love it:)
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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rjackson
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by rjackson » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:07 am

Yo, Pig! 9 pages in and I haven't killed it... (yet?).
Pick myself up, stop lookin' back.
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climb2core
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:08 am

kafish2 wrote:I have never had much difficulty in checking the draws I am clipping. I have often swapped out a bad draw with a draw from my rack. If I do not feel like donating a draw (ie a route I probably will not return to soon) then I take down the offending draw. Seems pretty simple to me. I don't expect anyone else's gear to be good, that is why i give them a look, and I also do not expect anyone else to keep me safe (except the guy I let hold the other end of the rope). It all seems pretty simple and also places ownership of my actions squarely on my own shoulders.

The problem I see with any solution is that not only does it involve a more complicated process (education, implementation, sustained maintenence) but is also places to some degree the safety of the climber in the community's hands. There is an assumption that if there are draws hung, and especially if there is a tag, that the draws are abiding by the community standard and thus safe. Essentially saying that someone, other than the climber, has checked out these draws lately and deemed then OK.

No matter how this shakes down I will continue to check draws as I climb, but don't expect me to take down any draw that does not look/feel dangerous despite the material with which it is made or how long it may have been on the wall.

If everyone is so fucking good at inspecting gear, then why the hell are there so many truly shitty biners out there?

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tbwilsonky
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by tbwilsonky » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:48 am

tania wrote:No perma-freakin anything. No aluminum "project" draws, no steel draws, cleaning draws, or cleaning biners/draws. NOTHING!!!! No doubt I have left my draws on a route because I was too lazy to hang/clean them every day, or the whole "I don't want to waste a precious redpoint go hanging the dang draws!!" excuse, but the more people argue about it the more I am against leaving anything. If we want to raise money for gear, raise money for SS bolts/glue and chain and beefy quick-links for the anchors. Everyone keeps talking about always checking a "perma" before clipping it, but how often do you actually look at the freakin bolt or hanger?!?!?! It's no good if the draws are in good shape when the bolts/hangers are super mank and sketch!!!!! Come on people, lets actually focus on the equipment that's more important, SS bolts/hangers/anchors!!!!!
that + mid route perma.
haunted.

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krampus
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by krampus » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:34 am

MYDADPULLEDOUT wrote:O.k. I see how it is. You faggots use my idea and get credit for it. Why the didn't you fuckers listen to me three pages back?
pft whatever dude, that was so said by me a fucking year ago when young cletus got all but hurt
krampus wrote:If PD's are not permanent then treat them like project draws and take them down when they are no longer safe. Its not up to the community to replace gear or bolts or anchors or anything really. Thank god we have some super sucky team that has taken it upon themselves to help with that when they can. I don't take that for granted and when we do we may lose their help, and that would suck.
I accept any decision a land owner makes about their property for whatever reason, be it liability, access, convenience, or good ol crotchetiness. Leave no trace? polease
krampus wrote:I just want this ridiculous conversation to end, I don't believe the community should stand behind anything other than land owners requests and general safety. If PD's are not permanent then treat them like project draws and take them down when they are no longer safe....
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared

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krampus
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by krampus » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:35 am

rjackson wrote:Yo, Pig! 9 pages in and I haven't killed it... (yet?).
you must work harder
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared

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climb2core
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:30 pm

Seems to be two emerging philosophies:

1.) Be personally aware and responsible and let people organically figure out how to manage the mank.

2.) Be personally aware and responsible and try to figure some ethics that we can agree upon that will help reduce the mank.

I have heard the words "policing" and "rules" frequently when discussing the second option. It seems that this may be more out of misunderstanding and fear of an attempt for "top-down" mandated control. Maybe this can be clarified to bring the "two sides" closer together.

First, the initiative is to progress the VOLUNTARY ethics. Just as "don't TR through the chains" is a voluntary ethic. The intent of the initiative is to:

a) Increase awareness of mank (education)
b) Decrease mank gear

I think that both sides would agree with both of the above as something good for all of us. Now the sticking point comes on the second point: How do we decrease the mank?

The initial proposal was to:
-Not "donate" any aluminum gear to act as fixed gear for any route.
-Limit your project draws to 30 days. Date your bottom draw to let people know you intend to project the route and want to reclaim your draws.
-Limit fully equipped steel gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep

I know that there are proponents that do not believe in supporting ANY fixed gear and on the opposite side those that feel you should be able to hang your aluminum gear as long as you wish. The intent of this initiative was to find some common ground in the middle that would leave us all safer at the end of the day.

I have heard from many experienced climbers that they always and easily can check the gear the are climbing on. Perhaps they can, but I would say that evidence supports that they are the EXCEPTION to the rule. Evidence for that would be the ridiculously worn and sharp biners that have been pulled off 13's at Drive By and the Lode. Leaving up aluminum mank on moderately overhanging 5.12- routes is definitely not needed and just an accident waiting to happen. They are easy to clean and just encourage entry level climbers to get on routes over their head. Lets get the ethic back to hanging our own draws on this type of stuff and discourage others. Safety needs to win out over convenience.

So, this isn't about Big Brother controlling your life. This is about making the Red a safer place for all of us. To that end, I intend on helping with a fundraiser to raise $$$ for steel for the Madness Cave, Drive By, The Darkside, and Bob Marley. The Crew may have gone about it the wrong way and with the wrong intentions, but they were correct in that we need to reduce the mank.

Ian

tania
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by tania » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:24 pm

WTF????? Are you all really serious???????

NO FIXED GEAR. WHATSOEVER.

ANY MONEY RAISED SHOULD GO TOWARDS SS BOLTS/GLUE AND CHAIN/QUICK-LINKS FOR THE ANCHORS.

Need to clean a "steep" route?? Clean it and climb up a few bolts to lessen the swing...or dare I say clean it on top-rope?!?!?

Aside from wanting to make sure everyone is "safe", y'alls priorities are out of wack.
"Life is a balance of holding on and letting go." ~Keith Urban

toad857
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by toad857 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:42 pm

YOU WILL CONTINUE TO READ THIS THREAD

Image

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climb2core
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:59 pm

Tania, I get it and wish it was that simple. I am afraid that ship has sailed though. Some sort of fixed gear is here to stay. Now it is just a matter of figuring out how to make it as safe as possible.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by captain static » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:08 pm

I personally am in agreement with Tania on no fixed draws and support Team Suck on bolt/anchor maintenance. Being a NOLS graduate, I strongly support a Leave No Trace ethic. When there are fixed draws on a route it promotes more traffic and thus more impact to the base of the crag. When I go climbing outside I would prefer it not look like an outdoor climbing gym. I see the SS glue-ins as a step in the right direction, not only from a safety standpoint, but also in reducing visual impact. To me, leaving project draws and fixed draws is a step in the wrong direction.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh

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climb2core
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:58 pm

Bill and Tania, while your stance is admirable and would definitely fix the problem... Can you offer an actionable solution that the community would buy into and could be implemented? IMHO, project and fixed draws are here to stay for better or worse.

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pigsteak
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by pigsteak » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:09 pm

yes ian but you chuffers are too dense to see the answer. any draw left is abandoned. leave them up at your own peril. if i take down your proj draws to hang my own, i will use the loeffler initiative and hang them all on the anchors so no one steals them.

tania keep preaching it. focusing on the issue is missing the reality. self entitled , self absorbed climbers expecting the easiest way up a route so they can feel good and spray to their bros. outdoor climbing has turned into an amusement park experience and has nothing to do with the environment anymore.

hammocks, dogs, permadraws, music, stickclips, and blue jeans...come on fonzie, you can do this.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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climb2core
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:15 pm

Kipp, you must have spent too much time in J-Tree. You have turned into that hippie in the hammock. Just give peace a chance...

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