Fixed Gear

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climb2core
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Kipp, I can only aspire to be as "progressive" as you.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by pigsteak » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:55 pm

no worries brah...takes a real "out of the box" thinker to get this stuff right;)
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by krampus » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:28 am

climb2core wrote:This is more than about me. If they are there, people will clip them. Think bigger than yourself Kenny ;)
good god, you sound like the antagonist in an Ann Rand book. :D

Personally, I don't care what the ethic is. I will not remove anyone's gear unless it is dangerous, or the landowner decrees.
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:35 am

krampus wrote:
climb2core wrote:This is more than about me. If they are there, people will clip them. Think bigger than yourself Kenny ;)
good god, you sound like the antagonist in an Ann Rand book. :D

Personally, I don't care what the ethic is. I will not remove anyone's gear unless it is dangerous, or the landowner decrees.
Krampus, you don't HAVE to do anything. And if people would voluntarily not leave or abandon aluminum gear, then it is a non issue. The suggested ethic is pull your project gear after 30 days. Perhaps just leave it as the suggested ethic and hold a "yank the mank" event in Dec to pull abandoned aluminum gear.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by rjackson » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:53 am

climb2core wrote:
krampus wrote:
climb2core wrote:This is more than about me. If they are there, people will clip them. Think bigger than yourself Kenny ;)
good god, you sound like the antagonist in an Ann Rand book. :D

Personally, I don't care what the ethic is. I will not remove anyone's gear unless it is dangerous, or the landowner decrees.
Krampus, you don't HAVE to do anything. And if people would voluntarily not leave or abandon aluminum gear, then it is a non issue. The suggested ethic is pull your project gear after 30 days. Perhaps just leave it as the suggested ethic and hold a "yank the mank" event in Dec to pull abandoned aluminum gear.
Actually, if people would take responsibility for themselves then it would be a non-issue...
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:18 pm

Russ, I got a scenario for you...

21 year old kid just got accepted to Med school. He comes down to the Red for a week end and has been climbing mid 11. He and his buddies head out to Marley to check out the steep stuff. He gets on Beta Vul (it is a 5.11 jug haul for the most part, right) and takes a whip at the crux. Problem is, he really hasn't heard about all this "self responsibility" stuff and climbs in a gym where it is just assumed that the draws are fine. So, it turns out the crux draw has a ginsu biner on it cuts his rope. He decks, sustains head injuries and goes into a coma. 2 weeks later he is pronounced brain dead.

Now his parents loved the hell out that kid and are looking for someone to blame. The dad did well for himself and has ample means to hire a team of attorneys. He does some poking around and finds out that the community knew about the problem and had taken the attitude "It's your fault dood" Then he finds out his son was climbing on the land that was owned by that community of climbers. Now he is really pissed and goes after the owners, the RRGCC. He sues the shit out of them. Now of course we will contend that RRGCC has nothing to do with it, but the coalition will have to defend its position in court. Have you ever been in a civil suit? It can easily run in the HUNDRED's of thousands. The RRGCC is unable to raise the money necessary to fight the suit and land closures follow.

So, now we have a dead kid that was perhaps preventable, and our precious climbing land shut down where if "we own it, they can't close it" has now backfired. But you are right Russ... you will be just fine.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by clif » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:36 pm

i'd want to see his birth certificate
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by rjackson » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:46 pm

I don't buy the scenario... To be around climbing for more than a week and not be aware of the "draw-mah" of climbing, the inherent dangers or to never have heard the words "personal responsibility" ? And if it's the case that a climber can get that far into a career of climbing and not be aware, then the energy is definitely being put in the wrong places.

And what's to stop a law suit from happening anyway. A climber decks and dies from a failed bolt... Where is the fault and the liability? I'm climbing a gear route and I fall, blowing what I "thought" was good rock (you told me I could climb on it, so it must be safe!)... I deck and die. Is it your fault because you bought the land and allow me to climb?

The climber's family sues the coalition and loses because the gear is determined to be abandoned. The climber's family sues the coalition and wins because the gear is determined to be endorsed by the coalition.

Steel is going to wear out also, only slower. So there will be an even larger "false" sense of security because of it... But don't worry Ian, all the "really" dangerous aluminum gear will be gone and you will not have had anything to do with the dumbing down of climbing in the RRG.
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:58 pm

Russ, how the hell do you explain the severely bad gear on climbs like Angry Birds and 40 oz? Glad your opinion appears to be in the minority.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by tania » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:04 pm

I am beginning to feel a bit embarrassed to tell people that teh Red is my home crag.
"Life is a balance of holding on and letting go." ~Keith Urban

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by rjackson » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:07 pm

If you know about bad gear, fix it. If you know about bad gear and you left it, it's on your conscious. (I don't really think you want to me to "explain" bad gear.)

And by the way.. It is the minority that is developing, it is the minority that is fixing anchors, it is the minority that is fixing bad bolts, it is the minority that pretty much allows "you" to climb outside.
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:21 pm

tania wrote:I am beginning to feel a bit embarrassed to tell people that teh Red is my home crag.

Tania, ethics debates have been going on around the world since climbing began. Perhaps consider being glad that people are trying to communicate and come up with a plan based upon compromise and debate and not chopping bolts or taking draws down in the middle of the night.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:24 pm

rjackson wrote:If you know about bad gear, fix it. If you know about bad gear and you left it, it's on your conscious. (I don't really think you want to me to "explain" bad gear.)

And by the way.. It is the minority that is developing, it is the minority that is fixing anchors, it is the minority that is fixing bad bolts, it is the minority that pretty much allows "you" to climb outside.
You know that I have always been very appreciative of anyone that donates their time and or money to developing. But don't go out there doing expecting special thanks... no one is making you do it. Do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want to. Sorry, but there is no "I am a developer" special rank card when it comes to developing ethics for fixed gear.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by tania » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:39 pm

:shock:
"Life is a balance of holding on and letting go." ~Keith Urban

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by krampus » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:43 pm

Personal responsibility is the only piece that everyone can agree on. That is why it should be the only real ethic. If you want to make the personal responsibility of every gumby that walks up to the crag your own responsibility then go for it, I nominate you to be the official honorary deputy sheriff of all that is the red river gorge, endorsed by no one yet seen by all. Just because I know cpr doesn't mean I HAVE to try and save someones life with it, but if I try to save someones life with cpr, I legally HAVE to see it through to the end or get sued for it. You must understand that this title bestowed upon you has a particular set of language implying that YOU will be the one to sue when the initiative is not followed through.

Seriously though, I think that the ethic is already changing. I see substantially fewer sun bleached project draws than I did a few years ago. I am fine with encouraging people to not leave up their aluminum for extended periods of time, spreading the word about dangerous draws, and increasing awareness so that ones own set of personal responsibility mores makes them better suited to make safer decisions.
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