Fixed Gear

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dustonian
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by dustonian » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:53 am

rjackson wrote:By the same logic, a lot of people are using SS glue-ins for route development. I am still using 5 piece bolts and hangers. Are the routes with glue-ins any safer than my routes? No.
Incorrect. Your zinc-plated bolts may be equally safe now, but just give 'em 10 or 15 years. I am all about the convenience of mechanical bolts, but developers around here should have made the switch to stainless gear (in any form) years ago. Fortunately there are a small handful of people trying to keep up with replacing all the rusted-out junk out there. Please donate to http://www.teamsuckclimbing.com!

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by rjackson » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:58 am

Ian, I'm done.

Nick is correct.

You are not going to be content until everyone drinks your Kool-Aid and agrees that you can save climbers from themselves.
Pick myself up, stop lookin' back.
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by der uber » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:00 am

rjackson wrote:Ian, I'm done.

Nick is correct.

You are not going to be content until everyone drinks your Kool-Aid and agrees that you can save climbers from themselves.
yes it's just a matter of who can post the most. I gotta get some real work done now - we'll see ya!

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:03 am

rjackson wrote:Ian, I'm done.

Nick is correct.

You are not going to be content until everyone drinks your Kool-Aid and agrees that you can save climbers from themselves.
Please tell me specifically how these proposed ethics promote a false sense of safety:

-Be responsible for the gear you climb on. Do not assume it is safe.
-Do Not "donate" any aluminum gear to act as fixed gear for any route.
-Try to limit your project draws to about 30 days.
-Limit fully equipped steel gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by clif » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:04 am

i mean this in the most helpful way possible-

you're nuts
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by rjackson » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:05 am

Hey Dustin... My "hypothetical" poses worse case (SS) against best case (5-piece) and I still believe that if I sink a 5-piece under a roof in bullet rock and no one climbs on it then it will not need to be replaced before the heavily used SS placed in crappy rock that is constantly exposed to the elements. I do agree that if conditions are completely equal, the SS will last longer.
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by dustonian » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:11 am

The roof or steepness of the placement is largely irrelevant in the Red, as many of the cliffs seep seasonally and the rock is full of salt and minerals, leading to rapid galvanic corrosion of non-stainless hardware at many of the crags. I have replaced countless heinous 5-piece bolts in the Red that have never seen a drop of rain, yet the heavily corroded hex head snapped with less than a quarter twist of the wrench. You are deluding yourself if you believe zinc-plated hardware is "just as good" as stainless steel.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by pigsteak » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:17 am

dustin in your estimate, what is the percentage of new bolts going in that are stainless versus non? from the developers I know, I am betting 90 percent non stainless is still the norm....and do tell, where do you find a consistent supplier of stainless at a reasonable price?

I have not even been to most of the new choco factory routes...are all of those stainless as that seems to be the latest development?
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by dustonian » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:22 am

Unfortunately, you're right: still about 85-90% plated. This percentage holds true for the Choco stuff as well. I wonder if in 20-25 years the next generation will be proactive enough to keep up with the nearly exponential rate of new-routing in the Red? We have already fallen behind as it is.

ClimbTech will be making and distributing Waves soon. Jim Taylor is also rolling again with the twist bolts. In the meantime, Fixe distributes a good SS glue-in for $6.75, and I bet Kevin would cut a deal for bulk orders. The Triplex bolt is another option for SS expansion bolts, just loctite the nut:
http://www.fixehardware.com/shop/glue-in-bolts/
http://www.fixehardware.com/shop/fixe-bolts

Finally, I have heard rumors of a cheap 1/2" mechanical SS bolt from the guys at Action Fund. It is a wedge-sleeve combo style, so again loctite on the nut would be necessary for steep routes.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by shear » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:30 am

climb2core wrote:
shear wrote:
4.). Steel is safer. It wears 10 times slower. That means sharp edges will develop more slowly giving people more time to catch it. And the only reason I am proposing steel is because aluminum will go up in its place.
More time to catch it? More time than what? A sharp carabiner is a sharp carabiner, regardless of the "time" it took for it to get there. In fact, I'd say that catching a sharp steel carabiner might be LESS noticeable than an aluminum one. Steel isn't safer either...it's really as safe as aluminum in terms of what we as sport climbers are using it for. The only time you really prefer steel is if you need to lift a bus. You're trying to make way too many details in this neighborhood watch you've got going on.
Put 2 identical routes side by side together, equip one with aluminum and one with steel, and have them both see the same daily traffic for 5 years. How many sharp edges are going to develop in that time period on the aluminum vs the steel? Aluminum wears 10 x's faster, so it will develop 10 x's as many sharp edges. That is 10 x's as many sharp edges to catch, 10 x's the opportunity to fall on a sharp edge, and 10 x's as many biners to replace. And that is assuming the aluminum draws are the oval shaped that can wear up to 5 mm vs the I beam which can be sharp in as little as 2 mm. Even taking the safety out of it, it is just a better investment.

Now that being said, a sharp edge is a sharp edge regardless of the material. Of course we will still need to preach personal saftey and check your gear always as your first line of defense.

And you are absolutely correct that I am trying to set up a neighborhood watch. We have a threat that will kill someone in our community if we don't come together and start figuring out a better way. But it is not the police, it is your neighbor watching your back and you doing the same in return.

Who are you protecting though? Protecting yourself and your climbing partner should be the only priority. Are you also going to set up a bike helmet watch and a seatbelt watch? Put up steel where it's needed, leave everything else draw free, let people hang their own gear, try to send routes, take draws down. Remove gear that looks dangerous, strip routes that have mank gear, yell at retards doing dumb shit. You can't save the world. It sucks, but it's the truth.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:40 am

shear wrote:Who are you protecting though? Protecting yourself and your climbing partner should be the only priority. Are you also going to set up a bike helmet watch and a seatbelt watch? Put up steel where it's needed, leave everything else draw free, let people hang their own gear, try to send routes, take draws down. Remove gear that looks dangerous, strip routes that have mank gear, yell at retards doing dumb shit. You can't save the world. It sucks, but it's the truth.
1.) Protecting myself and my partner is my priority. Who else am I trying to protect? Anyone that clips fixed gear in the Red, including you. Will it ever be a perfect system? Of course not. However, I see no reason to not put forward some simple ethics we can all do that will significantly reduce the amount of sharp gear in the Red. If you are willing to yell at gumballs doing stupid shit, why are not willing to actively play a role in limiting the mank YOU put up in the Red.

2.) This isn't about policing people. It is about what you do to either contribute or not contribute to the mank in the Red.

3.) Not trying to save the world. My objective is much narrower. Increase awareness and decrease mank in the Red.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by toad857 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:43 am

rjackson wrote:I also find it interesting that no where does anyone consider the issue of trad mank and how those that climb traditional routes deal with the situation. Perhaps a lesson can be learned from that micro-community?
I imagine the advice would be something like this:

1.) Inspect your gear and remove old tat

2.) Don't read 15 page threads about "fixed" gear

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by RRO » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:28 pm

Thought about adding my two cents but figured I'd just pocket it and save for the strip club. Titties
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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:32 pm

RRO wrote:Thought about adding my two cents but figured I'd just pocket it and save for the strip club. Titties
Sage wisdom, but too late for me... I am knee deep in it now. Also, you have already taken some time to enter the great debate...
RRO wrote:Trust me, the sentences I am fixing to type sound as absurd and petty in my head as they should to you in print. Over the last few days I have been asked by the guilty parties of all sides of the latest round of drama going on around the Red , as to just what my opinion on the matter is.

First, why in the hell would my opinion matter ? I cant climb anytime soon because of injuries, I did not frequent the place that is in question. Out of the 12 or so years I have been climbing in the Red I have climbed with as many people as I can count on my 19 digits, so finding places that are not crowded have never been an issue to me. I have been a strong proponent of keeping sport climbs safe, trad lines spicy as nature allows, trying to take care of the land that surrounds the cliffs more than the goofy lines on the wall and a huge supporter of if you aint hurting or bothering me I dont give a shit what you do or how you do it.

Second, the actual land that is in question is private land. The land owner has final say, period.... Let this be another lesson showing that no matter how much money you raise for a private area, no matter how many trails days you have, how cool the area is, how amped the owner of the land may be at the time or how big of a johnson you have while sending your proj....that can all change in a blink of an eye. The owner can close it at their will, they can strip the bolts, they can strip the draws, they can hang big long pink draws, they can use aluminum foil anchor bolts, you will become old and it wont work no more and they could make you rappel on a strippers pole if they so desire. The point Im trying to make is that we cannot as a community ever count on private land to be there or to stay as it currently is. Muir, Torrent, Zoo, Motherload and may I mention Roadside are subject to the owners discretion and mood at anytime.

The answer to the current problem is easy, on Dario’s land its Dario’s decision. If he decides to leave it in the communities hands, then so be it, lets hope we are able to find a happy gray area that always exists. But in the end even if that does happen, he could change his mind at any second and in my very strong opinion has the right to do so. The only land that cannot be taken away from us is the PMRP and that has its own issues we are all aware of, but this is not the place to discuss that. Just remember throughout this rant that climbing on any land is a privilege and is not a God given right of this country and our founding fathers, treat it as so, it could be taken away tomorrow...

But back to the question as a whole. I was asked my opinion, and generally I give my opinion even if not asked. So I broke down and un-retired myself from the Internet climbing scene I once was completely immersed in but had to step away from to avoid drama such as this. I dont do things in moderation, so its either turned off or Im all in...So I did what any respectable shit talker would do, I opened up a few cold ones, made sure I was safe as possible and dove right in reading the rants and getting my blood boiling at all sides with each post I read.

At first I was thinking, yeah, same arguments, mostly the same people, not worth my time since the answer to the exact question at hand has already been answered, its Dario’s land.....

But then as I pondered on the issue it quickly became apparent that the acts were touching a much larger issue and in all reality is just the straw that broke the camels back. The Red and its areas are getting loved to death and everyone reading this or even thinking of reading this is to blame. You should punch yourself now...hard and in the nuts(or other sensitive areas as required by nature)

As a community and an area we have been growing for years and years. No one has written a book on how to develop a sustainable recreation area such as we are blessed with and whats even crazier is that literally the entire climbing world is watching what we do and in all reality, coming to see how we do it. Not only do we have the visitors seeing and coming but we have every agency that can help or hurt us at a local, state and national level seeing what and how we react. How can we fight as a user group to not only keep areas open but ask for money to help preserve/repair areas, request other private owners keep their areas open/open new ones and so on if we cant find two legs to stand on out of many.

There is no right and wrong answer, in the end both sides are trying to protect the area they love and both groups have had a huge hand in creating the monster thats literally eating its own foot.

I have very strong agreements and disagreements with both sides. I am very proud of the people that cared enough about the area to raise money , do a shit ton of hard work and do what they truly thought was a good thing for everyone involved. But, I am also proud of the people that stood up for what they believe in and in my opinion were not only making a statement about the perma draws but were also raising the issue of the bigger problem that we are facing as an area...loving it to death with no end in sight. But again, I do truly believe both groups were doing what they think were right but both could have been handled differently and created less drama.

We have two very black and white groups that need to find the gray area in the middle, which I think will happen as it has with all the other issues we have faced as a community. One thing I do feel very strong about is as an area we have to find that stopping point where we put our foot down and say enough is enough, this is rock climbing, you can get hurt, you will get your feelings smashed and in general the sport needs to buck the current trend of everyones a winner and return to a little bit of its roots and weed out the people that really just dont belong in the air and out of the gym.

Within our type of community we have extremely strong minded individuals that are very outspoken , opinionated and in all reality very egotistical. When I first started climbing and to this day, the biggest draw , well other than being in nature, is the F'you attitude that once was apart of almost every climber I know. Thats been lost to the lower the challenge to the lowest common denominator and everyone gets a star mentality of our current society.

A strong statement was made by the removal of the draws , but a strong statement was also made by hanging them to begin with. Its like that old saying, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. A simple blog post complaining about the issue would and has in the past proven ineffective. The actual act has brought a lot of influential minds to the table that may have not been brought together any other way. Could it have been handled differently, yes absolutely, both the hanging and the removal could have. But since it wasnt its how we get past that will either show how we have grown as an area or how we have regressed...

From her on we will try to ignore the obvious answer to this particular question, once again being Dario owns the land , and act as if it was open land where we as a group should be able to self govern, possibly touching on more than the perma draw question and hitting what in my opinion has everyone chasing tail and riled up.

As a route developer and speaking for other developers we have had as much gear taken off routes as was removed from the load just in the last few years, why doesnt that make a big stink ? I know, not really the issue at hand but what Im getting at is from the standpoint of knowing exactly how it feels to get your hard work and expensive gear yanked. If the group keeps the gear knowing all that gear was funded by the community they are stealing and any point they had tried to make is null and void. Return the gear fellas...

Another thing that needs to be made certain. All climbs on Forest Service land cannot have fixed draws. If there are still routes with fixed draws , they need to be taken down. Black/White...

Now to get the opinion of perma draws out of the way. I wont waste time by beating around the bush and trying to sound like a politician. I am not a fan of them at all. Of course I have never been a project climber and focused mainly on moving up through the grades and generally being able to do whatever grade I was on at the time in a few goes. I also chase choss and slabs, so really , my opinion dont count. But with that said I also see a gray area as normally exists. I can admit that some routes need a fixed cleaning biner for pure safety and convenience sake but other than that draws need to be hung as you go, learn how to use a stick clip or know how to get out of a situation or better yet how to read the routes to limit being in over your head before you leave the ground.

Also, call it selfish but I do not want to see all that tat on the walls. We already have chalk, denuded bases, dogs everywhere, radios, colored chalk, people from ohio and so on and so on to deal with. I personally and selfishly do not like seeing it and go climbing purely to be in nature, basically, its annoying to me. But again, I go where there are no people, so its usually not an issue.

When I was just starting climbing having all climbs perma drawed would have kicked ass at that time. But looking back , Im glad they were not there, it taught me how to be responsible for myself. And now I would hate to see this spread to all outdoor climbs and we all know once the body hits the slip and slide it cant stop till it hits the end. So why even take that first sprint when the end is a brick wall ?

With that said, I dont climb at the load or on steep routes. My guess is every single person that took the draws down have clipped fixed gear at the load and other places.....if only because its almost always been there. So in knowing each of you and knowing you dont want to be a hypocrite, I ask where is the line drawn ? I would hope your going to practice what you preach and continue to hang your own as you go, every single one... Its like chopping a route, if you do chop one, you better chop that shit on lead or your being like that dad that says dont smoke as hes packing his box of reds. But if the folks that took the draws down continue to clip draws in place I would have to ask the logic behind letting the inevitable cheap ass leaver draws stay up tied to sun bleached webbing and not replacing them for extended times with good gear. Again, I dont do steep and have already made it apparent, I dont like or see the need in 99% of the fixed draws, so in all reality I dont have a dog in the fight other than aesthetics and access issues . But there is a gray area and needs to be found.

To me this last act is bringing to the table much bigger issues than whether perma draws are on a route or not. The issues that need brought up and figured out is how as a community we are going to sustainably develop/manage the area to handle the traffic its going to get. The words been out there, the people are coming, we can sit back and talk about the old time(even though most of you that are doing this were not here then), who to blame(we all are, every single one of us, not even worth arguing) or we can react by putting action to words(which was actually done by the hanging and removal crew)....

Let us use this incident as the catalyst that allows us to work together to find the happy medium and apply our energies to things that are not only affecting us as a user group but greatly affecting the lands under our feet that we have all proven we love to death. Make sure the trails we use are sustainable, make sure the bases of our climbs can handle the impact before you bolt the line, if it cant either fix it first or maybe that route dont need bolted. Limit the number of moderate climbs at an area, if a parking lot is full go to another area, limit your group size. Speak up if people are doing things that will jeopardize the access to the area , be the asshole we all know you can be. And so on and so on...

I could write ten more pages on the issues we are having as an area and how I think we need to deal with them but Im tired, the buzz is wearing off and I have to get ready to go to a meeting tomorrow with other land managers, the Forest Service and many State and National agencies about recreation areas, its abuses and the exact problems we are trying to deal with here on our own land.

I was asked my opinion, I gave it. In the end whats more important than what I or anyone thinks is if we can use this problem to get stronger as a community or if we are just going to turn it into who has the biggest johnson and in the end just make us all look like idiots. Use the energy that has been created to help, cause if you dont, your as big of the problem as the people you are whining about.....
Well said.
Last edited by climb2core on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Fixed Gear

Post by Crankmas » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:31 pm

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