Fixed Gear

Access, Rehab Projects, Derbyfests and more...
Post Reply
User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:20 pm

Worth reading this post by Andrew Bisharat:

"Hugh

Thank you so much for the update ...

We recently ran Whitney's decidedly unbiased article about perma-draws, which as far as I know, was the first and only time the greater issue has been covered in a magazine. Before that, we ran Pat Bagley's article about the perma-draw debate at Shagg crag.

I see some conflicts in what you wrote above, however, that I wanted to point out. You say we want climbers to be self-reliant, but then later say that we owe it to (young) climbers to put in place the mechanisms that will re-enforce this risk--which is really just another way of saying that you're going to make decisions for someone else about what is safe/risky by not allowing the the option of having to make that decision in the first place ... Further, of course, we want climbers to be as self-reliant as possible and to be able to inspect their gear and make smart decisions about whether or not it is safe to climb on ... but we honestly can only take that up to a point: For example, What about bolts?

Bad bolts are another problem that sport climbing is increasingly going to have to face in the next 10 years as many of the bolts in our classic American rock climbs of the 90s enter their third decade! This seems to fall outside the jurisdiction of personal responsibility insomuch as it can be hard (even for an experienced eye) to see what bolts are bad--and to do anything about it requires returning on another day to the climb with a bolt kit and having the skills to know how to fix it, which, to be quite honest, are skills that I DON'T want to see most climbers taught.

In Rifle, we seem to have this unique situation of locals who act as stewards for the whole crag and act all using the channel of the Rifle Climber's Coalition. Both bad bolts, as well as aging perma-draws, fall under the same jurisdiction. The difference, of course, is we have 350 rock climbs, and the Red has thousands ...

So, if we accept that some third party needs to be responsible for bolt maintenance, then ostensibly perma-draws can fall inside of that bubble too. Also, here, what climbs those draws appear on is also up for discussion. At the Rifle Climber's Coalition, we have both approved and denied requests for people to add perma-draws. At the Clean-up party this summer, we cleaned aging "perma draws" (not steel, but the aluminum/nylon draws that had been left in place years ago) off of many classic routes, and either left them without draws, or added climb tech steel permadraws. Not everything should be perma-drawed, and likewise, no perma-draws seems unreasonable as well as potentially dangerous given that the alternative to the steel would be one person's set-up that a large group of people use over the season, wear down to the point that the original owner no longer wants the draws, and then the draws get left and become a safety issue.


I think the real answer is education, like you say. This education is certainly a responsibility of the media (writers/books/magazines, etc) ...

AB"

http://eveningsends.com/2011/11/legends ... ing-today/

I do believe that we are at the point where the RRGCC should have an approval process for permadraws. I also believe that a clean up party or "yank the mank" event would benefit all of us. I am sure Rifle has its own issues and drama, but they seem to have figured out how to "police" the mank themselves.

FYI: 507 sport routes in the Southern Region currently on the online guide.

tania
eu te amo
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 3:16 pm
Location: Torrent, KY

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by tania » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:26 pm

NO FIXED GEAR.

When did this sport become all about convenience?????
"Life is a balance of holding on and letting go." ~Keith Urban

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:31 pm

tania wrote:NO FIXED GEAR.

When did this sport become all about convenience?????
Tania, I will fully support the the NO FIXED GEAR initiative if you can convince the climbing community. Please, please do tell how. Oh, and to answer your question... probably started about when you began grade school. I do truly appreciate your youthful optimism.

RRO
Fluffy
Posts: 1949
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:18 am
Location: woods

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by RRO » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:25 pm

You got a lot of free time chief....where did you pull that rant from ? It was too long even for me to read, and I wrote it, I hope it was as full of wisdom as I was wasted when I wrote it....I'm actually sad this is where we have come. I honestly feel quilty of being a big part in feeding the monster that the area has become.....it's simple rules in the end really,, don't fuck it up, after that it's gray. I'll keep in the hollers to not disturb others, others please don't find me back there.
http://www.redriveroutdoors.com

If you need to contact me , email me. Less Internet, less stress

RRO
Fluffy
Posts: 1949
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:18 am
Location: woods

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by RRO » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:52 pm

Damn, just took a sec to read what you dug up that I posted awhile back... I was passionate and smart at onetime and it worth the read if I say so myself...,,now, I'm out and back to making sawdust
http://www.redriveroutdoors.com

If you need to contact me , email me. Less Internet, less stress

ted
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:56 am
Location: Berea

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by ted » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:50 pm

your trying way to hard to sell this "yank the mank". Just grab a crew a do it, I dont care a bit to help

chosen1
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:56 pm

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by chosen1 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:59 am

image.jpg
image.jpg (212.78 KiB) Viewed 2328 times

User avatar
der uber
Buff Biff the Sausage Monkey
Posts: 1344
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: en route

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by der uber » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:25 am

Image

bob
Shaman
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 9:28 pm

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by bob » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:59 pm

I have been watching this thread with some degree of trepidation for some time now … apparently one goal is to close any privately owned cliff that does not conform to the vision of policing and rules regarding gear, fixed or otherwise, by means of the creation of a general standard for any and all gear left on cliffs. All of a sudden if I let someone leave something on my cliff, regardless of reason, I am responsible and liable for its condition and maintenance … regardless of who left it, etc. … now I am the responsible party, as the identified landowner; the alternatives are to police with vigor and strip all gear unattended (doesn’t matter how long or short it has been there) or to risk a lawsuit condoned by the community consensus on gear maintenance.
All gear left, regardless of reason, is abandoned; no matter the state of that gear, the reason for its abandonment or the circumstance surrounding the same … all of it. All of it is suspect at the best and should be treated as such. The “nanny state” thinking that “saves” the ignorant only serves to increase the reliance on the gear of those that have gone before by the ignorant as the “reliable trail blazing” of the pioneers. To think or produce any rule, policy, custom or standard invariably ropes the private land owners into the round robin of “safety” and “insurance” and creates an obligation and potential expense on their part that would not exist without climbing on their property.
You are proposing, in the end, that I close climbing, that all other private land owners seriously reconsider climbing and that climbing on private property can only occur with your intervention and oversight. To do otherwise would create expense, obligation, etc. on their part.
Ain’t going to do it. Now or ever.
Bob

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:37 pm

Privately owned land was never in the scope of this discussion. Just as the Webers set their policies, you would do the same for Torrent. NFS land was never on the proposal either as there are already standards in place. These are voluntary ethics that were proposed for the PMRP only and are no different IMO than "don't tr through the chains"

Below are the proposed voluntary ethics for the PMRP: that are not even supported by the RRGCC.

1.) Be responsible for the gear you climb on. Do not assume it is safe.
2.) Do Not "donate" any new aluminum gear to act as fixed gear for any route. DO pull any mank gear as you encounter it.
3.) Try to limit your project draws to about 30 days.
4.) Limit fully equipped steel gear to the very steep and chains/cleaning biner to moderately steep.
5.) Promote education and awareness of these ethics in the community.

Point 1.) and 5.) are obviously not in contention. The intent is to promote safety through education and reduction of mank gear and NOT to put anyone at increased liability. I am not sure how voluntarily choosing to follow a few simple ethics that would decrease the mank on land that you do not own/operate/manage and that would encourage education could put you at risk?

The Rifle Climbers Coalition has some ethics for fixed gear in Rifle. They limit the amount of fixed draws that go up and hold an event to check and remove mank gear. Does that put you at risk?

Perhaps add one more thing:
6.) Any land owners wishes will always supercede any ethic mentioned above.
Last edited by climb2core on Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

bentley
The Man
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:34 pm

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by bentley » Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:57 pm

Dear RRG climbers. Jerry Springer just called and his ratings are falling faster than peoples individual level of responsibility when out climbing at the Red. Apparently all of his viewers find the drama at the Red regarding chipping, perma draws and downgrading far more interesting than 13 year old moms that don't know who there babies daddy is.

Want resolution to the "issues" at the Red?

Step one: Log off

Step two: go climbing, at the cliff and talk to people.

Its called mentoring. It is something that was done prior to internet forums and Facebook. Its hard to remember the dark ages I know.
Climbing is not free. Support your local climbing organization. Labor and money precious resources!

User avatar
der uber
Buff Biff the Sausage Monkey
Posts: 1344
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: en route

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by der uber » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:32 pm

climb2core wrote: Hi my name is Ian. I am going to tell Bob how to run the land he essentially paid for. While I am at it I am going to decide that I now speak for.the community instead of the organization that built the community.

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by climb2core » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:57 pm

bob wrote: … apparently one goal is to close any privately owned cliff that does not conform to the vision of policing and rules regarding gear, fixed or otherwise, by means of the creation of a general standard for any and all gear left on cliffs.
First rule of fight club:

1.) Be responsible for the gear you climb on. Do not assume it is safe.


From the Kentucky Recreational Use Statute:

(6) Nothing in this section limits in any way any liability which otherwise exists:
(a) For willful or malicious failure to guard or warn against a dangerous condition, use, structure, or activity;


This is a powerful statute that is largely the reason why people that own private property can let us climb on their land and not be held liable. It basically this means that if you make efforts to warn people that come on to your land for recreational use that dangers do exist, that you cannot be held liable. For example, cliff-lines are high, bolts may fail, gear found should be assumed to be unsafe, etc.

I respect Dr. Bob and I am well aware of what he has contributed to the Red. However, I still fail to see how these voluntary ethics not designed or invoked on his property could open him up to liability. If anything, these common sense ethics would further serve to warn individuals of dangers and inherent risks of climbing. I am of course not a lawyer, but I sure would be interested in the opinion of one on this subject.

User avatar
clif
Loser
Loser
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by clif » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:18 am

Happy Thanksgiving Everybody! looks like a beautiful day to be
training is for people who care, i have a job.

HarvardLaw
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:43 pm

Re: Fixed Gear

Post by HarvardLaw » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:52 pm

climb2core wrote: I am of course not a lawyer, but I sure would be interested in the opinion of one on this subject.
Clauserunt FUTUO ascendit atque abeo.

Google translate Latin -English.

Post Reply