Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Access, Rehab Projects, Derbyfests and more...
Post Reply
TradMike
BAM!
Posts: 1171
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 10:57 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by TradMike » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:18 am

Image

I would stay away from saying something is safer statistically. Fear is good.

User avatar
tradotto
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: Cincinnati
Contact:

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by tradotto » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:59 am

Image
42

User avatar
jordancolburn
Poser
Poser
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Louisville, KY
Contact:

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by jordancolburn » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:27 am

camhead wrote: I'm not a huge fan of a lot of Muir's (not Miur, unless you are thinking about Miuras? Those shoes kick ass) approach– the manicured trails, signs, bolt spacing; everything about it is basically making a developed city park that caters to the lowest common denominators of climbing. However, I still climb there on occasion, and give the Webers cash every year.
Not trying to be critical of you (especially since you give back when you climb there), but I've never understood the "How dare they attempt to make climbing convenient or safe" attitude about developing new areas. If you want more runout areas at the end of long bushwacking hikes, those types of climbs are out there, so go climb them instead. But, that doesn't make the climbing any better or any worse at muir. The convenience does draw more people, which might keep me away on busy weekends, but it doesn't make the climbing there a joke as a lot of the trolls on this thread have insinuated. If you climb there, you should donate (applies to the PMRP too). If not, then don't donate, but you don't have to sit and troll, criticize, complain and be a generally bad human being to people you are actually probably going to see out climbing sometime. But who am I kidding, this is the internet.

Anyway, I'm grateful the Webers and FOMV for having such a great convenient area with enough moderates to take people and introduce them to this great sport.

User avatar
tradotto
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: Cincinnati
Contact:

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by tradotto » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:39 am

sit and troll, criticize, complain and be a generally bad human being to people
Isn't that what the internet is for?
42

camhead
Poser
Poser
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:14 pm
Location: The Other River Gorge

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by camhead » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:13 pm

dustonian wrote:But have you done Dreamthiever, Renegade, Tradisfaction, No Bones about It, and In a Pinch, Paul? And seriously, some of the best 5.12-5.13 sport routes in the Red are found at the Sanctuary, Midnight Surf, Solarium, and (shameless plug) Ivory Tower...
Yeah, I agree, Dustin, there are amazing routes in MV (Dreamthiever gave me a severe ass-whoop as soon as it got wide). I'm more saying that the very way that Muir is set up attracts crowds, and the very types of crowds that I try to stay away from. There's nothing wrong with this at all; I personally think that it is a good thing to have a place like Muir to funnel all the "we've got a van from the university outdoor adventure center, and one trip leader who leads 10a in the gym"- types. It's just not really my scene, even though the place serves an essential function for the greater RRG.
faceholdonacrackclimbDAB!

camhead
Poser
Poser
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:14 pm
Location: The Other River Gorge

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by camhead » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:20 pm

jordancolburn wrote: Not trying to be critical of you (especially since you give back when you climb there), but I've never understood the "How dare they attempt to make climbing convenient or safe" attitude about developing new areas.
Damn, double post on here.

Jordan, just to clarify, I don't think that there is ANYTHING wrong with how Muir is managed and developed (though it is ironic that the least "wilderness" area of the RRG is named for John Muir). And stylistic preaching to others is fucking lame; I actually just climbed for three days with a friend who is the precise demographic that you usually see at Bruise Bros on a busy weekend. I am the furthest thing from "how dare you bolt something closely!"

To reiterate: it is AWESOME that there is a place like Muir to draw beginning sport climbers. All I'm saying is that the atmosphere that Muir fosters is not the one that I personally seek out. That's all.
faceholdonacrackclimbDAB!

User avatar
jordancolburn
Poser
Poser
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Louisville, KY
Contact:

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by jordancolburn » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:29 pm

camhead wrote: Jordan, just to clarify, I don't think that there is ANYTHING wrong with how Muir is managed and developed (though it is ironic that the least "wilderness" area of the RRG is named for John Muir). And stylistic preaching to others is fucking lame; I actually just climbed for three days with a friend who is the precise demographic that you usually see at Bruise Bros on a busy weekend. I am the furthest thing from "how dare you bolt something closely!"

To reiterate: it is AWESOME that there is a place like Muir to draw beginning sport climbers. All I'm saying is that the atmosphere that Muir fosters is not the one that I personally seek out. That's all.
Hey, def. not trying to preach to you. I completely agree with your post above about appreciating muir, it serving a niche, but just being a "scene" or "atmosphere" on busy days of mostly new climbers thats not appealing to you (although on look at my send list shows that I have happily been, and probably still am to some degree in that category). That was mostly in response to reading a few pages of people actively being jerks just because it doesn't appeal to them. Sorry I quoted you to make the point, but it really wasn't trying to be preachy and especially not to you as I agree with what you're saying.

lena_chita
Poser
Poser
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:48 pm

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by lena_chita » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:36 pm

jordancolburn wrote:
camhead wrote: I'm not a huge fan of a lot of Muir's (not Miur, unless you are thinking about Miuras? Those shoes kick ass) approach– the manicured trails, signs, bolt spacing; everything about it is basically making a developed city park that caters to the lowest common denominators of climbing. However, I still climb there on occasion, and give the Webers cash every year.
Not trying to be critical of you (especially since you give back when you climb there), but I've never understood the about developing new areas. If you want more runout areas at the end of long bushwacking hikes, those types of climbs are out there, so go climb them instead. But, that doesn't make the climbing any better or any worse at muir. The convenience does draw more people, which might keep me away on busy weekends, but it doesn't make the climbing there a joke as a lot of the trolls on this thread have insinuated. If you climb there, you should donate (applies to the PMRP too). If not, then don't donate, but you don't have to sit and troll, criticize, complain and be a generally bad human being to people you are actually probably going to see out climbing sometime. But who am I kidding, this is the internet.

Anyway, I'm grateful the Webers and FOMV for having such a great convenient area with enough moderates to take people and introduce them to this great sport.
I don't think it has anything to do with "How dare they attempt to make climbing convenient or safe" attitude.

It is a private land of Rick and Liz. If their vision involves manicured trails, convenient benches to sit on, route tags, nice bathrooms, well-maintained gravel roads and bridges, etc. etc. then so be it, it is the end of story.

But you can't fault people who don't agree with this vision, either.

After last year's trail day (yes, I was there, I was actually leading one of the groups that worked on the trail), I climbed at PMRP the following day. As I was hiking to Shady Grove, I couldn't help but think that the trail I worked on IMPROVING at Muir Valley the day before, actually looked to be in a better shape, even BEFORE we started widening and leveling it, than the trail to Shady Grove. Yet the trail to Shady Grove is by no means difficult, long, or involving tedious bushwhacking of overgrown vegetation. It is a perfectly serviceable trail that is easily navigate-able by everyone who is able to walk on two feet, including toddlers. So was it really necessary to spend time, money and resources on improving that trail at Muir Valley?

The dichotomy of "if you don't like nice trails, go bushwhack somewhere else" is a false one, bc there is a very large range of what would be considered perfectly serviceable trail.

In my case, I don't think it WAS necessary to improve that particular trail. I personally think that all those 100s of feet of benches and stairs at Bruise Brothers are excessive, too.

BUT... back to where we started. It is not my land, it is not my vision, it is Rick and Liz's vision. And I am there to help because I appreciate the fact that they open their land to climbers. That's what the donation is for, in my mind. The bottom line is that when I am there to help improve the trail, it is not because *I* think that this particular trail needs improvement, or these particular benches really need to be built, but because THEY think that it is.

User avatar
jordancolburn
Poser
Poser
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:33 pm
Location: Louisville, KY
Contact:

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by jordancolburn » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:16 pm

lena_chita wrote:[
The dichotomy of "if you don't like nice trails, go bushwhack somewhere else" is a false one, bc there is a very large range of what would be considered perfectly serviceable trail.

In my case, I don't think it WAS necessary to improve that particular trail. I personally think that all those 100s of feet of benches and stairs at Bruise Brothers are excessive, too.

BUT... back to where we started. It is not my land, it is not my vision, it is Rick and Liz's vision. And I am there to help because I appreciate the fact that they open their land to climbers. That's what the donation is for, in my mind. The bottom line is that when I am there to help improve the trail, it is not because *I* think that this particular trail needs improvement, or these particular benches really need to be built, but because THEY think that it is.
That's what I'm saying, if an area doesn't appeal to you for whatever reason (crowds,trails, bolts, tags, benches) go to one that does, but in general you should support the areas you do go and not go out of your way to criticize or tear down the ones you don't. That's like going to a party at someones house and yelling at them for painting the living room blue when you clearly would have preferred off white.

**again, to avoid confusion, not directing these comments at you (lena) or anyone else, but just as a talking point in response to the ongoing 5 pages of discussion (can we get to 10 if I bring up hammocks or dogs?)

Crankmas
Fred Garvin, male prostitute
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2003 1:24 pm
Location: Winchester, KY

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by Crankmas » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:37 pm

Has anyone ever collected on the steak dinner for getting a photo of a bear on Muir Valley land?

User avatar
clif
Loser
Loser
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:24 pm

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by clif » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:38 pm

i don't know where people think i stand in all this and i'm not sure the issues have ever been adequately focused, but just to put a finer point on the generalizations offered---

I have no problem or criticism of Muir Valley nor the Webers up to the insinuation that the climbing at Muir will be closed if donations don't increase due to the necessity of maintenance/upkeep/etc. i don't even have a problem with that except that i will not increase my level of giving until i know what the money is going for, 'very' to 'quite' specifically.
training is for people who care, i have a job.

Meadows
Puppy Pimp
Posts: 5425
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 12:03 pm
Location: Singing in the sunshine - laughing in the rain

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by Meadows » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:45 pm

The message so far here ...

You don't agree with how the money is spent so climb elsewhere. Before you go, make sure you donate to Muir or we'll lose it.

Hmmmm ...

60 to 80k is a very large number. I am interested to see the breakdown of the "justified" costs, and if there is potential to reduce them. Lena makes an great point: do we need to feel like we're walking through heaven to get to climbing?

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by climb2core » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:10 pm

I have seen the numbers. It is amazing how expensive road maintenance is. Think of the distance from the paved road to the Valley floor. Plus, there have been ongoing efforts each year to build infrastructure (ie culverts, drainage ditches) that will reduce maintenance cost on a long term basis.

But regardless of how crazy and needlessly expensive you may think it is... it would be a non-issue if everyone could drop $2 or $3 in the box every time. Of course, there will be those that do not, and those that do more than there "share".

Lena's point is irrelevant. The question you need to ask, is worth it to you to support Muir Valley as long term climbing venue. Unless you buy Muir Valley and sink in hundreds of thousands into it's development, you don't get to make the rules, just decide if you want to be in the game.
Last edited by climb2core on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
tradotto
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:11 pm
Location: Cincinnati
Contact:

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by tradotto » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:18 pm

I think it's pretty easy. If I was climbing in your backyard I'd buy you a beer. I throw in the money it would take to buy Rick and Liz a beer for letting me climb in their back yard, every time I do. I really don't care what they do with it. I *hope* that it helps to keep Muir sustainable and open for as long as I am able to climb. But if they actually used it to buy beer, that's fine too.
42

dustonian
BANNED
Posts: 3089
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:46 am
Location: Lex/Zoe

Re: Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

Post by dustonian » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:25 pm

tradotto wrote:I think it's pretty easy. If I was climbing in your backyard I'd buy you a beer. I throw in the money it would take to buy Rick and Liz a beer for letting me climb in their back yard, every time I do. I really don't care what they do with it. I *hope* that it helps to keep Muir sustainable and open for as long as I am able to climb. But if they actually used it to buy beer, that's fine too.
+1

It is rude and disrespectful to nitpick what landowners do with the money you offer for the use of their property. A friend just stayed at my cabin in the Red for a week and a half and tossed me a fifty when he left. Did he hassle me over whether I was going to spend the money on propane, water, electricity, gravel for the driveway, property taxes, insurance, beer, drugs, hookers, or whatever? Hell no, because he wouldn't be staying there again if he did! Honestly some of you people could use a crash course in good manners. If a landowner wishes to volunteer this personal information, then fine--if not, it ain't none of your damn business so stop being so nosy and acting like you're entitled to something! God climbers suck these days.

Post Reply