Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Access, Rehab Projects, Derbyfests and more...
TradMike
BAM!
Posts: 1171
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 10:57 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by TradMike » Tue May 06, 2014 12:12 pm

One other thing to consider. Parkinson's Disease has been linked to that shit as well. Besides bees, it is not safe for humans to handle either. Unfortunately, it seems like the natural process is best left to play out. Stronger trees will replace the weak - Natural Selection. Wineries seem to be the only ones who have figured out how to farm a crop without harmful chemicals. And we act like we can't figure out where childhood cancer, autism and other messed up diseases come from. If it is toxic to fish, bees, etc. it is toxic to humans as well yet we put it on the food we eat.

User avatar
Rotarypwr345704
I said I'd donate $100 to the RRGCC, and nobody posted in the MF thread after I said that
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Tue May 06, 2014 3:37 pm

TradMike wrote:One other thing to consider. Parkinson's Disease has been linked to that shit as well. Besides bees, it is not safe for humans to handle either. Unfortunately, it seems like the natural process is best left to play out. Stronger trees will replace the weak - Natural Selection. Wineries seem to be the only ones who have figured out how to farm a crop without harmful chemicals. And we act like we can't figure out where childhood cancer, autism and other messed up diseases come from. If it is toxic to fish, bees, etc. it is toxic to humans as well yet we put it on the food we eat.
Get out of here troll! You are not allowed to have a differing opinion to the Elite of the Gorge!
I fell for the everyone-shut-up-and-ill-donate-money scheme. -Ray Ellington, guidebook gawd

My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.

Kellyrob
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 4:24 pm

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Kellyrob » Tue May 06, 2014 4:49 pm

Hello, I've been reading your thread. I have my M.S. In Conservation ecology and one of my thesis chapters was on the hemlock woolly Adelgid (HWA) and imidacloprid. A few things... Hemlocks are a keystone species in these forests. They stay green year round which has huge thermal and chemical effects on the forest. Losing the hemlocks will be devastating for the ecosystem. And it is true that hardwood trees will take over but this will drastically change the forest. Much diversity (hemlocks and the species that depend on them) will be lost so next time you go climb take a moment to remember what it looks like now.... It will change quickly.

That being said, using imidacloprid to save hemlocks cannot be used on a large scale. There are too many hemlocks to treat to stop the HWA. Using imidacloprid is more to save the *priority trees* like the huge trees above a crag or trees near a house or other structure. Using imidacloprid on certain trees shouldn't hurt the bee population. While large amounts of imidacloprid could hurt bee populations no one knows for sure why colony collapse is happening-- it cannot be blamed solely on one thing.

It is true that imidacloprid can be bad for streams which is why it shouldn't be used within 25 feet of one. There is another chemical called dinotefuran that is injected into the trees that can be used on hemlocks near streams. It's more expensive and less effective long-term.

I think saving *some* hemlocks is an excellent idea and necessary for public safety. When you set out to do this, prioritize the hemlocks that would pose a threat to the safety of climbers and hikers. The hemlocks will fall if they are infected and it becomes very dangerous to be in a forest with large, dying hemlocks (I've seen it firsthand). Saving all the hemlocks is sadly, not possible. Sigh.

dustonian
BANNED
Posts: 3089
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:46 am
Location: Lex/Zoe

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by dustonian » Tue May 06, 2014 4:54 pm

Good info. I agree treating some hemlocks is probably worth it. The majority of the damage to bee populations is from large-scale overuse in the setting of industrial agriculture. Any idea when this miraculous beetle is supposed to become available to save the trees without using the poison?

User avatar
Corona
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Corydon, IN or Waitomo, New Zealand

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Corona » Tue May 06, 2014 6:06 pm

Colony collapse - imidicloprid correlation is no longer considered robust; will find citation later. Frankly, it given it's short half-life when exposed to air/uv, it doesn't even make sense (an exposed bee is an instantly dead bee, not a bee prone to swarming.) Imidicloprid has a long half-life in subterranean water, but by then is generally HIGHLY dilute in arboricultural settings--look at terrain to determine environmmental impact. No mamamlian toxicity dermally, moderate oral. Run off risk could be eliminated entirely by use of trunk injections. Use of mauget capsules ideal, provided no toddler/dog walks by. No oral toxicity risk to dogs or toddlers with soil injection. You could easily use a multifaceted strategy--soil injection at crag near dogs/kids, trunk injection elsewhere where run off was a concern if you wanted. As pesticides go, it's as innoccuous as they get.

User avatar
Corona
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:18 pm
Location: Corydon, IN or Waitomo, New Zealand

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Corona » Tue May 06, 2014 6:08 pm

Pressurized trunk injections would be ideal, but we'd need trained arborists, not volunteers then.

dustonian
BANNED
Posts: 3089
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:46 am
Location: Lex/Zoe

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by dustonian » Tue May 06, 2014 6:11 pm

Better check the financial disclosures on that citation of yours lol

potts
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:16 pm
Location: West Virginia

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by potts » Tue May 06, 2014 6:40 pm

dustonian wrote:Few if any long-term ecological field studies of actual Imidacloprid use in the real world exist, though there are many laboratory studies easily identifiable using Google scholar:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 010-0566-0
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es051392i
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6079/351.short

It seems like the setting of use is critical with this chemical. The stuff is toxic enough and features a long enough half-life (in addition to being banned across most of Europe: http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/3066.pdf) to think twice about its widespread use here. As usual, US regulation lags far behind the rest of the developed world and most of the "safety" studies were funded by the pesticide industry... so no easy answer on this one just yet.

Is this the only chemical found to be effective for the hemlock treatment?
Seems to be the only affordable one back in our neck of the woods. Unfortunately it was used too late or not at all and most of our trees our dead.

User avatar
DriskellHR
choking on it
Posts: 1260
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:34 pm
Location: under your bed....
Contact:

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by DriskellHR » Tue May 06, 2014 8:00 pm

I have to say its awesome seeing so many folks concerned about ecology and conservation. That being said let the RRGCC know how we can help1 (we have an army of 5 gallon buckets)! We will be more than happy to assist in anyway possible. A few things we would like to request, we would like to know which trees, locations (gps would be great, maybe a unobtrusive way to mark the trees?) and a method of treatment. This is all so we might begin a database of treatment so we don't retreat the same trees and can monitor them as time progresses. We would also like to know a plan of attack before it happens (just so we are aware of what's going on and when). Otherwise we can stay out of it and let y'all run with it.
.
Again THANK YOU ALL!! All BS aside we do have one of the best climbing community's around.

Shannon we appreciate all you have given and all you continue to give! Thanks for taking this up!

Driskell
RRGCC Land manager
"....... Be sure to linger......." Mike Tucker

User avatar
ynot
Trad Grandaddy
Posts: 6431
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2002 9:02 pm
Location: the corner of Walk and Don't Walk
Contact:

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by ynot » Tue May 06, 2014 9:39 pm

Yes we do know what is causing colony collapse. pesticides and herbacides. all of them
"Everyone should have a plan for the zombie apocolipse" Courtney

User avatar
Artsay
SCIN's
Posts: 3397
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 11:11 am
Location: Lexington, KY
Contact:

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Artsay » Tue May 06, 2014 10:35 pm

potts wrote:
dustonian wrote:Few if any long-term ecological field studies of actual Imidacloprid use in the real world exist, though there are many laboratory studies easily identifiable using Google scholar:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 010-0566-0
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es051392i
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6079/351.short

It seems like the setting of use is critical with this chemical. The stuff is toxic enough and features a long enough half-life (in addition to being banned across most of Europe: http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/3066.pdf) to think twice about its widespread use here. As usual, US regulation lags far behind the rest of the developed world and most of the "safety" studies were funded by the pesticide industry... so no easy answer on this one just yet.

Is this the only chemical found to be effective for the hemlock treatment?
Seems to be the only affordable one back in our neck of the woods. Unfortunately it was used too late or not at all and most of our trees our dead.
What do you mean "most of our trees our dead"? If I didn't know any better I would say this is in reference to Muir Valley? But that would mean that potts is....weber?? Whoa.
Does he have a strange bear claw like appendage protruding from his neck? He kep petting it.

User avatar
Artsay
SCIN's
Posts: 3397
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 11:11 am
Location: Lexington, KY
Contact:

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Artsay » Tue May 06, 2014 10:39 pm

Shannon, I work at UK and they successfully treated their hemlock trees maybe about three years back now (at least I think it was successful?). I can speak with our Grounds department if you want and ask any questions you need if you think that would be helpful.
Does he have a strange bear claw like appendage protruding from his neck? He kep petting it.

weber
Star Trek Kid
Posts: 1017
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:44 pm
Location: Indy & Wolfe Co., KY
Contact:

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by weber » Tue May 06, 2014 10:43 pm

.
Last edited by weber on Thu May 15, 2014 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. - Randy Pausch
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
ray
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 840
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 10:48 am
Location: Lexington, KY

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by ray » Tue May 06, 2014 11:56 pm

Strange that you and "Kev Potts" aren't Facebook friends. For an internet savvy guy you'd think you guys would be buds on FB.

User avatar
ynp1
still a dumbass
Posts: 1324
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:54 pm
Location: Bishop, CA

Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by ynp1 » Wed May 07, 2014 12:41 am

This is great! Now, the only question is... When will our buddy Rick close Muir Valley! He is starting to look a little crazy on here... Well unless he keeps deleting and changing his post...
I don't have haters, I have fans in denial.

Post Reply