Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

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whatahutch
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by whatahutch » Wed May 07, 2014 11:38 am

I was in as much awe with the hemlock groves as I was with the steep sandstone when I first started climbing in the Red. Hemlock is part of the atmosphere, the feeling, the look, and the personality of the Red.

I have access to tall, steep, and pocketed sandstone in Western Kentucky that is so much like the rock in the Red it is crazy, but the ecological setting is in no way the same. I love the hemlock groves and want them to be there for future generations just as much as I want to preserve open access climbing in the Red. Count me in on this project. I am poor, but can spare my time, feet, and back if there is a specific work date that will be set. If I can't make that date, my family and I would be happy to walk through the woods in the PMRP and MFRP to treat the trees (with prior instruction, of course) for a day or two. I could use it as a means to teach my boys about service, ecology, and how damn damaging we as humans are to the environment due to our ignorance to the bigger picture.

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/fhp/hwa/ ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_elm_disease ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut_blight ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_ash_borer ; http://www.nwf.org/Wildlife/Threats-to- ... ssels.aspx ; Just to name a few.

I remember EKU having a bee keeping program. I talked to the program director about colony collapse once and I remember her saying something along the lines that there is no one single reason why it is happening. From my understanding, the program personnel were trying all they could to understand and help prevent colony collapse in the mid- to late-2000s. They might be the people to contact when seeking knowledge concerning how to save the bees. http://www.eri.eku.edu/coal-country-beeworks

In some ways, I think this recent jump on the bandwagon to save the bees is a little behind the times and more resembles an environmental fad than an actual self-conscientiousness about your decisions and how they impact the environment. Grow your own food and stop buying from any major chain (including Whole Foods because they aren't as whole as they present themselves http://www.organicconsumers.org/article ... _27169.cfm) if you are really concerned about saving the bees and the environment in general. My local honey source has been providing me honey for the last four years with no complications, and my (time consuming enough to limit my climbing) gardens actually provide me food that I truly know is as organic as I want and so locally sourced it came from my front yard.

I won't be volunteering if the coalition, or any group, decides to have a save the bees day in the Red. Sorry. It could kill me because I am allergic to bees, so...don't count me in on that one. I am concerned about saving the bees, but I am also all about saving the hemlocks. Like marriage, a compromise should probably be made. Both are beneficial to people, other creatures, and the environment so something should be done for both. If that means a little give and take on both sides to make sure both remain, I am okay with that. Now, I will jump off my environmental soapbox and get back to the actual question asked here.

I think there are plenty of people in the climbing community that have the knowledge on how to save some of the hemlocks, so count me in as a volunteer to help you all save some of those trees. Send me an email (I will PM Shannon with my contact) or state the date here and I will do my best to be there.
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Shannon » Wed May 07, 2014 12:45 pm

First, let me just thank EVERYONE for the offers of help, support, ideas and thoughtful comments! It is extremely gratifying…but more importantly the hemlocks, and the bees, and all the other interrelated and interdependent organisms, including us human (climbing) critters will be the better for it.

Clearly, as with most things in life, it is complicated but rarely is it an either/or, or a black and white situation. This is obviously not a new problem and many people all over the US east coast have been dealing with this problem for several years and gotten results we can learn from.

I personally am impressed with the thoughtful and diverse range of thoughts and opinions expressed and think it has been extremely beneficially and productive that we are educating ourselves (in advance) in an open forum and trying to work through the options.

Of course, I want to be respectful to the RRGCC. It is ultimately the Coalition’s decision. I am not speaking for the RRGCC. I am only speaking as a concerned climber willing to volunteer and donate to treat the hemlocks on the PMRP and MFRP, as soon as something can be organized. My post was about the level of interest among other climbers as a way to help promote and find support (in advance) with the treatment process.

You guys are great! I have learned a lot and feel even better about the prospects of saving the hemlocks. I love the wood thrush even more—in North Carolina 96% of all wood thrush nests were found in hemlocks—so, there is a lot more at stake than just aesthetics, bees included. :D

I will be collating all the info and offers of help, names, numbers provided, contact info and any other leads I receive and I will be re-iterating my commitment to save the hemlocks to the Coalition. Yesterday, I stood under a hemlock that was completely covered in the egg sacks of the woolly adelgid. So sad.

Please feel free to post and/or forward any additional info on the subject.

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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Wed May 07, 2014 4:36 pm

ynp1 wrote:This is great! Now, the only question is... When will our buddy Rick close Muir Valley! He is starting to look a little crazy on here... Well unless he keeps deleting and changing his post...
OMG. Troll!!!!! Everyone look out! He might say something really mean and it might cause a boo boo to your self esteem...
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Josephine » Wed May 07, 2014 5:03 pm

Shannon (or anyone else with experience) what is the anticipated cost to treat trees on a larger scale? With over 1,000 acres between the MFRP and PMRP, that's a lot of land. Even if we just target trails to cliffs and tress at cliffs, that's still a lot to cover. I just don't know if it's in the $100 - $500 range or the $1000 - $5000 range or the $10000+ range for a realistic estimate of selective treatment. (Obviously it could probably be more than that if we treated every tree possible)
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Shannon » Wed May 07, 2014 5:36 pm

Josephine, Bentley had mentioned that Rick Bost had already been involved with the E.TN Climbers' hemlock project and might be a good resource...here he is in a video about the climbers helping with a Nissan funded hemlock project.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4Ne3nQj ... e=youtu.be

I am researching the costs on a large scale. I had even thought about researching possible grants or matching money to help with the cost. In Tennessee, Nissan donated $50,000. Anybody have any Toyota connections here in KY? Anybody know some businesses interested in getting some "green" credibility?

In the meantime, I think Mike is on the right track with starting with a location strategy...flagging and GPS coordinates to log (no pun intended) the number and location of hemlocks on the RRGCC property to get a handle on the scope of the project. That could be started right away with volunteers anytime and not cost anything :D

And yes, Michelle UK would be a great resource.

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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by DriskellHR » Wed May 07, 2014 7:11 pm

Could be a grant opportunity here as well. Although that's not my area of expertise.
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by clif » Wed May 07, 2014 7:38 pm

wow, a remarkable thread after all these years.

i am particularly grateful for the surprising statistic that the wood thrush nest predominantly/nearly exclusively in the hemlock. there is no more beautiful and subtle call in the forest, as J. Muir observed a long time ago, if i recall correctly.

i don't know what the best policy is but as Shannon suggested, i feel hopeful by the input. if anything, the cold winter temps up north may have eradicated some population of adelgid yet preserved the hemlocks, which could slowly return.

personal (unscientific) opinion, bee stability takes priority as a more integral multi-ecosystem actor.

ALSO (edit) -if any fundraisers occur that have live bands (Johnny & Alex Day specifically) i'd like a shot at global superstardom by contributing an extra $25, $50, $75 and get to sing lead vocal on some classic the band (23 string) could play. of course, the $100 bonus would be 'my old Kentucky home', I guess?
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by chandler » Wed May 07, 2014 7:55 pm

bee stability takes priority
What is the "right" population for a non-native species?

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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by clif » Wed May 07, 2014 8:13 pm

hey chandler, you asking me???

i'm no advocate for the 'non-native' perspective, much less the human/environment split, not that i'd make much of an argument one way or the other, or knew that bees were 'non-native', if I understand your post correctly. if I were to suggest a point of consideration though, it would be that sense bees congregate and disperse and hemlocks are relatively static, the dynamics of the vector may be relevant.
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Cocoapuffs1000 » Wed May 07, 2014 10:41 pm

ynp1 wrote:This is great! Now, the only question is... When will our buddy Rick close Muir Valley! He is starting to look a little crazy on here... Well unless he keeps deleting and changing his post...
Stop it. This is a great discussion on complex topic - do not drag this shit into it.

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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Corona » Thu May 08, 2014 8:12 am

Oh geez, guys, it's not a choice between hemlocks and bees.

The hemlocks will die. Imidicloprid will save many of them. Whether it's cost effective to treat them every year for the indefinite future is another story. The environmental impacts of imidicloprid use are definitely worthy of concern, but should really focus on aquatic invertebrates.

The bees might be affected. Those rightfully concerned about colony collapse should review the articles other thoughtful readers have already posted in this thread.

The meta-analysis of all published papers of the effects of imidicloprid on hive function is here: http://link.springer.com/article/10.100 ... 010-0566-0 A meta-analysis is a survey of all of the published studies on a topic, compared and contrasted to try to draw a conclusion about the state of the field.

The most cited paper on the definitive link between imidicloprid and CCD is here, posted in The Bulletin of Insectology: http://bit.ly/QpUpT3

It's reviewed (informally) here, so I don't have to: http://alandove.com/content/2012/04/col ... y-science/

Pesticides are bad, m'kay, but blaming colony collapse disorder on them wholesale without looking (or refusing to look) at the science is counter-productive. The research at present (albeit unconvincingly) points to a multifactor etiology. High pathogen load of Nosema, Israeli Acute Paralysis, and Varroa; miticide, pesticide, and other agrichemical use; management stressors from frequent hive travel; and reduced access to water and nutritionally diverse pollens in farm fields may be creating a constellation of symptoms that together cause colony collapse. We just don't know. What we know so far is that neonicotinoid pesticides do not alone reliably produce colony collapse. We may be wrong, but I suggest we base our actions on science rather than superstition.

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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by clif » Thu May 08, 2014 5:05 pm

yeah, I didn't mean to oversimplify the multifactorial etiology, but to indicate a preference for a less is more approach to fixing complicated problems. if the bees are dying by a death of a thousand cuts, "et tu brute?" and the fate of the hemlocks will certainly be decided by global scale events and conditions that to ignore would leave us missing the forest for the trees. again, just a thoughtless opinion.
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Thu May 08, 2014 6:07 pm

clif wrote:again, just a thoughtless opinion.
First logical thing to come out of your mouth. Ever.
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by clif » Fri May 09, 2014 6:49 am

yet you waited
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Re: Who would volunteer to save the hemlocks?

Post by TradMike » Fri May 09, 2014 12:01 pm

The Eastern Whip-poor-will's decline could possibly be blamed on insecticides as well. They mainly eat bugs on the ground. Probably the ones that were flopping around dying from the insecticides. I miss hearing them in the gorge. What a beautiful song. I haven't heard one in a long time and I used to hear them a lot. Be sure to wear a mask and rubber gloves. Wash off with hot soapy water after you are done. I don't want to see you unable to walk from the Parkinson's later in your life.

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