RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

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J-Ru
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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by J-Ru » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:18 pm

Someone needs to do the Maths!

# of Poos = (# of Visitors per year) x (% that have to go on a given day - % who will just go in the woods anyway)

Area of Poo = Feet of Cliff Line x (100 Feet from Cliff - First 30 Feet from Cliff)

Poo per Foot Ratio = # of Poos x 2 year max Poo Decomposition Time / Area of Poo



==> Seriously though, it would be best if everyone just crapped Jr. Williamson, Migs, Lago's, Arches, but it does (and can't) always happen. If the "Poo per Foot Ratio" is high enough, then maybe the maintenance & security are worth it. Let's not turn this into a park, but let's not pollute the the land either.

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clif
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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by clif » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:46 pm

the balance of people with this problem who would also walk out to flat holler from chica bonita or purgatory, for instance, seems small. I know it's an unlikely possibility, but an actual septic system owned by a private interest might provide the additional impetus and proximity to draw these people. I don't know if the old oil land on top that borders these areas might be prevailed upon or if a tax exempt org can partner with 'concessioniers' but it could be a missed business opportunity if oil prices remain where they are. good post Nick.
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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by TradMike » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:29 pm

Two freezer bags works well to pack it out. Better than most wag bags. Put TP in one bag and then pack them together for a kit.

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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by rene » Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:39 am

In the best of conditions human waste will take a long time to decompose. It won't break down if it's ON the surface (or under a rock). Furthermore, the bacteria, parasites and viruses that are in the poop will not break down. So for example, if someone has pin-worms (a human worm) or e-coli and they improperly dig, these things can be transmitted to other people. Particularly through dogs that may have run through the improperly disposed of poo.

Then there's an erosion issue from people that are (1) trying to find the perfect spot to dig (2) digging in the same place. The duff layer in the red if often not 6-8 inches so it's often difficult to dig a hole deep enough. And in the spots where it is a great, secluded spot, the chances are someone else has already dug there.

Let's suppose that the RRGCC actually *COULD* educate everyone and hand them a poo shovel and the person would magically use it correctly and there would be no problems with the soil or finding a good spot. A walmart poo-trowel is aprox $3.00 x annual visitors (let's say a quarter of Muir Valley's reported figure of 40,000). 10,000 x 3 or an ANNUAL charge of $30,000. That does not make financial sense.

It's cheaper to put in a toilet than to provide shovels and you eliminate the risk of transmitted diseases - and the gross factor.

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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by Rx2Climb » Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:28 am

Image
For those festive dumps!
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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by sharon9999 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:42 pm

rene said: In the best of conditions human waste will take a long time to decompose. It won't break down if it's ON the surface (or under a rock).
Seriously? It won't break down? Ever?? Not buying this at all. And what is a "Long time"? This is Kentucky, not a frozen tundra.
I think maybe we are forgetting all kinds of animals poop in the woods. This is manageable with out installing toilets in the parking lots. Also the truth of the matter is people are not going to walk back to the parking lots after they reach the cliff. People are still going to poop in the woods unless you plan to put a toilet at every cliff. (Please don't) We don't need toilets in the woods. We need people to bury poop and pack out paper. Maybe we can try to allow this rock climbing thing to remain some thing of a wilderness experience and find better things to spend money on.

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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by caribe » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:35 am

" It won't break down" yes this statement is wrong.

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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by lena_chita » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:12 pm

Of course poo will eventually decompose even if it is on the surface. But it will take longer.

And rene has valid points about the fact that between the vegetation roots, and the rocks, and the slopes, the areas where someone could dig a proper deep hole for pooping is really small at most of the cliffs.

Dig a hole is an perfectly acceptable approach in wilderness, where few people go. Even hide-it-under-a-rock, while less good, would still be O.K. in remote areas.

But the areas immediately adjacent to popular cliffs at the Red see a lot more people and dogs than a 'Wilderness" area would. I don't like the toilet idea much, but I can't think of a better alternative. leaving things the way they are right now is not going to be sustainable. If everyone could carry a wag bag/poop tube, and pack shit out... that would be less impact than building the toilets, or digging holes... But I just can't see this happening.

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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by EricDorsey » Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:42 pm

sharon9999 wrote: I think maybe we are forgetting all kinds of animals poop in the woods. This is manageable with out installing toilets in the parking lots. Also the truth of the matter is people are not going to walk back to the parking lots after they reach the cliff. People are still going to poop in the woods unless you plan to put a toilet at every cliff. (Please don't) We don't need toilets in the woods. We need people to bury poop and pack out paper. Maybe we can try to allow this rock climbing thing to remain some thing of a wilderness experience and find better things to spend money on.
The problem is the Red is not wilderness so not sure why people are comparing it to a wilderness area? The climbing happens a mile from a major road, it has oil wells all over the land, and THOUSANDS of people visit the same FEW acres of land every season.... If it was an actual wilderness area where people are dispersed burying poop might work but the Red is too concentrated for that and you are never gonna convince people to pack it out. And you can't compare human to animal poop, there is an entirely different flora of bacteria and problems related to human poop vs animal poop. I guess we can continue to ignore the poop problem but it is only going to get worse, we bought the land so lets be responsible and take care of it!

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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by TradMike » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:45 pm

Maybe the best thing for the lazy, poop on a flat rock and then throw it as far as you can down the hill so I don't have to step in your shit. The bugs in the Red will eat it within a couple days (during the summer) if your diet is alright.

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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by Willy » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:23 am

Giving everyone free trowels isn't practical and I'm sure putting in toilets would help the problem but I'm not convinced everyone would walk back to the parking lot to use them. Why not leave a trowel and some wag bags at every crag in a strategic location for the public to use?

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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by dustonian » Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:41 pm

That was tried already at few especially busy crags (Lode etc.), they weren't maintained and people actually left bags of shit inside the wag bag/trowel storage area as if there was a trash service or something... amazing. Bathrooms would be great, but unfortunately no doubt that they would be vandalized beyond repair within a few months.

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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by stix » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:30 pm

there are nice toilets at martins fork and military has been litered w human shit lately. I don't see a worthwhile solution without lowering the number of users.
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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by Josephine » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:46 am

As the holiday season is approaching - these would make a great gift. If you came to Johnny & Alex Trail Day you may have been able to try one out for free as they donated several samples. They're a great company and it's a great product! :-) http://amzn.to/1LG5YdB
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Re: RRGCC Toilet Input Needed

Post by climb2core » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:57 pm

People will still shit in the woods if it is more than a 5 minute walk. However a RRGCC mandate that you must pack out or use the toilet might improve use to a 10 minute walk.

I'd think one at the fork by Serenity Point would put a lot of the more popular crags within 10 min

However, admittedly I'm pulling numbers out of my ass talking shit

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