Muir Madness

Access, Rehab Projects, Derbyfests and more...
J-Rock
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Post by J-Rock » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:04 am

Yup, we've gotten much faster and more efficient. I have a pretty good system now. We've experimented with several different methods. Mostly I belay myself, we have also bolted on lead (and yes, while bolting on lead it is usually done while hanging on the gear), and sometimes I have a belayer. Often I must hang on with one hand and drill with the other... talk about a pump! The vertical routes are quick and easy (a 50-60 foot climb can be done in less than an hour... the cleaning will probably take longer though). Steep routes take more time and effort, but generally involve less cleaning. For the steep routes I found it helpful to have a belayer and use lots of small cams and a hook. Of course, the single line method works equally as well (but then you must return to the top of the cliff to retrieve the rope, unless you hang the draws and clip in another one). Anyway, like everything else, there is a multitude of methods that are all effective. Sometimes we even traverse across ledges or a face from a previous set of anchors while placing gear along the way. The easiest method we used on the left side of the Great Wall. We put up the tallest route first (sometimes we top-rope several others to the sides, but with huge pendulums or swings if you fall) and then the ones to the left were each shorter. We were able to swing across (hang on with an arm or use a cam or hook and then place an anchor bolt). Then we put in the other anchor bolt and there were anchors on another route. Done this way it was possible to equip 3-4 routes in a very short amount of time. Thanks Bruisebro for the patient belays on those two 5.12's last Saturday. Personally I prefer to belay myself so that I don't become bothersome, but Bruisebro really sped up the process and was very helpful like always.
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pigsteak
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Post by pigsteak » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:31 am

jrock, what's the hardware going in? 4 3/4" X 1/2" SS?
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J-Rock
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Post by J-Rock » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:42 am

Dynabolt Gold: 1/2" x 3 3/4"
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Post by Spoonman » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:14 am

I do not use a belayer on the steep stuff. I do as Wes mentioned. Either put in a working bolt or get the first bolt in. It is usually a combination of aiding up and down with cams and/or hooks.

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Post by Texas Pete » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:17 am

Must have been like a construction site. Were you guys wearing hardhats and showing some butt crack?

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Post by andy_lemon » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:16 pm

:lol:
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Post by pigsteak » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:30 pm

so why not stainnless? aren't we talking about the difference of say, 10-15 yr life, versus, 40-50 yr life? I am not an expert on steel compounds, so I would appreciate any illumination possible. I guess I was under the assumption that all new bolting would be stainless.
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Toad
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Post by Toad » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:35 pm

They come in two flavors: carbon steel and stainless steel.

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pigsteak
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Post by pigsteak » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:14 pm

thanks toad..but help me out...what difference does it make when bolting routes? Is one favorable to the other? Not sure why, but I guess I had it in my head that stainless was superior hardware....am I mistaken? anyone?
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Post by alien2 » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:35 pm

Check out the ASCA website on how to bolt
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/howtorebolt

"Corrosion
Even in dry climates, climbers should use stainless steel bolts and hangers. It is also important not to pair stainless with non-stainless metals (i.e. stainless hangers with non-stainless bolts, etc.) in wet areas. This miss-match accelerates corrosion and can be avoided by painting hangers with numerous coats of primer or by using Fixe or Metolius pre-painted hangers. Better yet, always use stainless steel bolts AND pre-camouflaged hangers appropriate for your area (plain stainless steel is camouflaged for most good granite). While non-stainless bolts will last for some time in dry climates, much rusting occurs even in desert locations like Owens River Gorge, where those maintaining anchors observe significant rusting inside the bolt hole on routes only a few years old."
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pigsteak
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Post by pigsteak » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:45 pm

thanks alien...so do carbon steel bolts rust?

I bolted some routes last year in Southern Illinois, and when I asked a major player down there (someone who has bolted hundreds of lines), he uncategorically said that we needed to "up" the standard and go stainless. I am just curious as to why the Red would be different?

I bit the bullet, and plunked down over $700 for bolts and hangers.
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Post by batguano » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:46 pm

Wow. I just checked on some SS powerbolts. 1/2" X 4 3/4"
$685.00 for 25. ouch. I couldn't find the SS in 3 3/4" right off, but 25 carbon bolts were $152.15. that was from toolfetch.com, one could probably find them cheaper.

So why the dynabolt over the powerbolt or the hilti HDSL? there's a great article on bolts at the ASCA site. http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/mechbolts.htm.
The manufacturers specs state that the dynabolt requires a minimum imbedment of 1 7/8" and when placed in 2000psi concrete (comparable to the red), has a tensile strength of 2200lbs and a shear of 4000lbs. While the powerbolt lists a minimum imbedment of 2 1/2" and in 2000psi concrete has a tensile strength of 5380lbs and a shear strength of 8545lbs.
Clearly, the powerbolt is superior. A tensile strength of 2200 lbs is eqivalent to 9.9 Kn, which is not an outrageously high number for lead falls.
weather is occurring.

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Post by batguano » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:50 pm

Piggie,
carbon will rust, stainless wont. the big issue with carbon bolts and stainless hangers is not so much the dissimilar metals being in contact with each other, but when the bolt begins to rust, it may do so at accelerated rates beneath the hanger and in the hole, making visual inspection somewhat unreliable.
weather is occurring.

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pigsteak
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Post by pigsteak » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:59 pm

thanks for the article link batguano...

ok, now my new questions....as was posted earlier on this thread, it was maintained that the Muir Valley was all about "safety"....unless I am reading it wrong, aren't the stainless steel bolts far superior to the carbon ones? why would carbon be used?

I am guessing it boils down to price, which goes back to my assertion of bolting for the masses, and not for safety only.

I hated plunking down the cash, but my teacher said I would be a bit more discerning in bolt placement if I realized that every hole was costing me $10 to fill with metal.

I am truly not trying to argue on this...I welcome all input why carbon steel is adequate.
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Post by batguano » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:24 pm

As far as strength is concerned, it's a corrosion thing. Powers lists their carbon bolts as having the same strength values as SS when both are new. put one a carbon bolt in a hole in a humid environment for a few years (sound like the red?)... whip on it a few times... and one could expect the piece to fail below the stated strength value. If you're starting with a tensile strength of 9.9 Kn, then one may be cutting it close.

I would surmise that you are punctilious in your assumption about price.
weather is occurring.

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