My prediction for 2008...

Access, Rehab Projects, Derbyfests and more...
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What crag/area will see a catastrophic bolt failure?

Funk Rock City
15
30%
Muir
3
6%
PMRP (newer route)
1
2%
PMRP (older route)
1
2%
Motherlode
3
6%
Long Wall
0
No votes
Pebble beach
1
2%
Pistol Ridge
1
2%
Other
6
12%
None will fail
19
38%
 
Total votes: 50

absolutsugarsmurf
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Post by absolutsugarsmurf » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:34 pm

I've noticed that this is a topic that often gets brought up but. I've voluntered several times to help with a bolt replacement, but like Josephine, feel like I would only be able to play a support role to the guys who really knew what they were doing, and have been waiting for action by others more experienced than I. I can promise that a group from Rocksport would be willing to come down for the weekend to rebolt Funk Rock as it is a favorite destination. I personally would love to see work done at Purple Valley, which is a death trap. When do we show up?

the lurkist
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Post by the lurkist » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:29 pm

I will voluntarily take the hangers off of my routes until permission is given to repair them properly.
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie

ashtray
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Post by ashtray » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:35 pm

smart play. gank em.

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Post by charlie » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:00 pm

Yo lurkist, will you yank that crazy anchor iron on Swift Creek too? That thing is bomber.

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caribe
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Post by caribe » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:39 am

I don't think any bolt sheering on falls has happened... ever... old Porter routes included. If we understand the nature of the problem we are going to be better equipped to deal with it. If a bolt fails I bet that a post failure analysis would reveal a pre-weakened state of the bolt due to over torquing, hence a torque wrench.

I realize that at some point a non-stainless bolt will get corroded enough to sheer off.
Buster wrote:Hugh (lurkist) had one fail on him while falling off Twinkie.
Caribe wrote:This may be the only legitimate bolt failure. Let's hear this first hand. Wh'appen'd Hugh? Did the bolt indeed sheer or did it come out of the rock?
Apparently Hugh's bolt failure on twinkie was also rock failure. Could have been poor choice of bolt placement or a situation in which a well-traveled route with multiple whips at the same spot chiseled away at the interface between bolt and rock. I imagine that the rate of progression to fracture is exponential as the bolt gets looser. Will multiple whips on fixtures always loosen them enough to create micro fissures in the rock? Is there a life time limit on any and all fixtures as Buster seemed to indicate? Are the bolts that go bad to begin with?

Stainless glueins might optimize longevity. I don't know, but I suspect that this would be a step in the right direction. Would such a shift in protocol be too onerous on developers? I think Pigs has some experience dealing with the goo.
Last edited by caribe on Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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caribe
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Post by caribe » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:42 am

Lurk: please leave your bolts at FRC. Backing off, would spell retreat and the perfect opportunity for all the anti climbing people in the FS reclaim FRC as climb free zone. While in place they are like little hostages. Cute, suffering, rain-swept, little hostages.

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Post by Spragwa » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:50 am

caribe wrote:Lurk: please leave your bolts at FRC. Backing off, would spell retreat and the perfect opportunity for all the anti climbing people in the FS reclaim FRC as climb free zone. While in place they are like little hostages. Cute, suffering, rain-swept, little hostages.
While I understand your concern, if someone decks and sustains a serious injury due to bolt failure on those routes I bet we suffer more than if Hugh removes his bolts. Even people who know that those routes are dangerous contiue to climb them. There are recent pictures of climbers on those routes. While I understand your perspective Caribe, Hugh has been a developer for 20+ years. I trust his experience that routes are unsafe.
Jesus only knows that she tries too hard. She's only trying to keep the sky from falling.

-Everlast

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pigsteak
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Post by pigsteak » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:53 am

plus, leaving the bolts in until replacement is complete allows equippers one last opportunity to trust their life to the original equipment. isn't that the fun part?
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

ashtray
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Post by ashtray » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:12 am

caribe wrote:I don't think any bolt sheering on falls has happened... ever...



not quite. i had a rusty nut explode on me early this summer (it had been tightened down adding new shear forces - i was working the route and )levered on it - adding extra force - and when we pulled the rope it exploded). i easily could've been killed. btw, those bolts have been replaced. but those circa '97 lowe's bolts from korea all have to be replaced.

so i think that shearing is possible, and regardless nut failure is just as catastrophic.

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Post by Wes » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:13 am

YES! I have scored many "last assents" on old manky gear! There is no better feeling then clipping into really bad anchors, going off belay and then hauling a drill up. Seems like forever to get the first new bolt in and clipped.

Caribe, just because we haven't seen a bolt fail yet, doesn't mean it won't happen, and every year the odds get better and better. And to the over torquing thing just isn't as big an issue as people make it out to be. If anything, under torquing has caused more problems in the red (esp. muir), because the rock is NOT 3000psi concrete (or whatever benchmark is used). So using a fixed number with a torque wrench is a bad idea to me. Just crank that shit down! They are not the same style of bolts as the rawl, but it takes real effort to torque some of the older bolts to break, though some just snap right off.
pigsteak wrote:plus, leaving the bolts in until replacement is complete allows equippers one last opportunity to trust their life to the original equipment. isn't that the fun part?
"There is no secret ingredient"

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Post by Lander » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:14 am

I caught Hugh when the bolt came out on Twinkie. When it pulled, it was like the rock exploded outward. He went a long way. When the ride was over, I lowered him and there, on the rope in front of him, was the quickdraw with the hanger and the bolt still intact. It had been placed in a relatively small portion of rock, in sort of a septum between pockets. I'm not aware of any bolt ever shearing off in the Red, although, I'm sure it's just a matter of time at some of the really old places if nothing is done.
"Doin' right aint got no end." - CRLT

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caribe
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Post by caribe » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:15 am

Spragwa; I respect the hell out of Hugh. He is intellectually honest enough to admit he is ignorant about which bolts are still bomber. He is hoping to err on the side of caution in removing the bolts. I am not claiming I know anything anybody else doesn't. I just want us to stay focused. Lets keep the terror alert to orange and not raise it to red.

Lets all get together and get the job done up there but lets also protect access. Who wants to have to drink Tang(R) for the rest of their lives instead of Orange Juice :?:

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caribe
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Post by caribe » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:24 am

Again, I agree... a rusted bolt shearing due to whip force is just a matter of time. My point is lets not panic. Lets leave the old school intact and fix the routes for the next generation.

Don't any of you have a problem with Hugh going out to pull the classics at FRC?

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Post by Wes » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:26 am

caribe wrote: Don't any of you have a problem with Hugh going out to pull the classics at FRC?
Not even a small one. I would trust him to make the right choice for sure. Hell, I would even be OK with a voluntary closure of the whole crag. But, I have done all the routes there that are within my current ability, so no rush for me to get back out there till next fall.
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Post by krampus » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:34 am

ashtray wrote: i had a rusty nut explode on me early this summer
I didn't know you liked red heads, glad your alive though
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared

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