Green Climbing

Other Crags, Aid Climbing, Bouldering, etc...
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rjackson
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Post by rjackson » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:23 am

anticlmber wrote: i like the world and most people and will continue to help them.
That's cool, in any world...
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Post by rjackson » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:26 am

anticlmber wrote:that my friend is all i am saying...
There's no argument here.

Oh, and I also agree it all is a catch 22. You already know, it's all about balance. Thanks.
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Post by Yasmeen » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:50 pm

Anti and Charlie, I want to hug you guys after reading this thread.
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Post by anticlmber » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:49 am

i always want to hug you yas.

to those that think this thread has gone the way of the buffalo so be it, but it is those attitudes that will continue to make this life go the same direction.

Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not. ~Dr. Seuss


Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. ~Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy

How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world. ~Anne Frank
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Post by anticlmber » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:01 pm

one thought i had this weekend about selfish-vs-selfless

pigknuckle, you say its all about ego right?? what about the BOD members.
that shit is selfless and if you look back through the other post you can clearly see, ain't many people strokin their egos. you gotta have some thick skin or be pretty giving to put up with all the asshole crap you get for trying to help.

no good deed goes ......something
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Post by anticlmber » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:59 pm

this sums up "green" climbing

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Post by pigsteak » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:18 pm

sorry I missed this thread the past couple of days..

from the emotional reponses to my argument I'd say I've hit a nerve, which even further proves my point. dare say that is your EGO speaking? gasp.....

herein lies the major problem I see.....everyone is run by their ego at some level, but refusing to acknowledge how it plays into their every action. denying it plays a role in your life everyday is just blind.

don't shoot the messenger ladies....if you get pissed or upset at what I am saying, then perhaps, just maybe, your ego is standing in the way. :lol:
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Post by pigsteak » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:23 pm

oh yeah, of course there are exceptions to all of this, but the majority operate out of ego. We can't speak for any individual person, you'll never know their true intentions, whether it be a military dude, a nurse, a BOD, mother teresa, etc....you just have to take their actions at face value, and expect the best of them.
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Post by anticlmber » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:25 pm

you hit no nerve sir, the fact that you think everyone is always ego driven speaks massive volumes about YOUR ego though.

are we guided by "ego", or emotions, our wallet, and other forces? sure. are we driven that way ALL the time? no. i speak for myself though.

you say that if you were thwarted at every attempt then a person doing good would crumble. i disagree. i have been criticized for my thoughts/beliefs, have been cast out for actions, and have been questioned many times over, and threatened as well for my beliefs/actions. but i will continue them for my life is more than just me.

stir the pot as you see fit pignuts but i have helped many folks simply because they needed help at the time. i didn't put any other thought into it nor did i expect anything in return and definately not an ego stroke. don't believe me, fine. fall off a route and injure yourself sometime and see who comes running.
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Post by charlie » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:20 pm

Bright side, I am no longer confused as to why Piggie bolts all those routes. By his own admission it has nothing to do with my life, it's all about the glory of having his name in the book and all the thanks/compliments he gets from people in the Gorge.

I'm just thankful there are others out there that couldn't care less about the glory, and do it more to raise the average goodness in the world. Dr. Bob for example.

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Post by pigsteak » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:30 pm

if I said that the ego is the primary drive ALL of the time, then I mispoke. of course other parts of our identity shine thru..perhaps I am just too neanderthal to see the higher calling.

I would 100% agree that my personal ego is something I fight daily. I am OK with that push/pull dichotomy.

Take today for an example. I have the day off work, and inches of snow are being dumped all around..If I were a selfless person, I should be spending the entire day shovelling the driveways around my neighborhood until my back is tired. Not just the driveways of the elderly mind you, but even of those who had to go to work today. There would be no thank yous, since they wouldn't know who did it, but my inner sunshine would be big. So what do I do to ease that ego? I shovel mine and one neighbor, just enough to feel like I made a difference. I am honest enough with myself to know that I preferred the comfort of sitting warm and toasty inside over 8-10 hours shovelling snow. of course. that is the ego driving decisions. a selfless person would end up in the emergency room with a hernia from shovelling, but not me.

personally, I think that everyone is using the words ego and selfish in a deragatory manner, and not giving it a fair shake. Doing the small things at the crag (picking up litter, trail days, etc) are a person's way of satisfying the ego. that is not a bad thing.

being a selfless martyr is only honorable when no one knows. we all have a glimpse of that capacity within us, but it is fleeting.

btw, there are tons of examples of mega rich people doing good with their wealth, so "serving people" can take on many forms....working for shit pay is not the only avenue ya know. Bill Gates has done more than any other individual for world hunger and AIDS research.

and you know if you also fell off a route I'd help ya in a second, even if I hate your guts. but you'd get a bill in the mail later. :twisted:
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Post by anticlmber » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:33 pm

being selfless doesn't mean being taken advantage of piggers, to compare to your driveway shoveling example.
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Post by pigsteak » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:34 pm

charlie wrote:Bright side, I am no longer confused as to why Piggie bolts all those routes. By his own admission it has nothing to do with my life, it's all about the glory of having his name in the book and all the thanks/compliments he gets from people in the Gorge.

I'm just thankful there are others out there that couldn't care less about the glory, and do it more to raise the average goodness in the world. Dr. Bob for example.
Charlie, I 100% agree with this all. There is satisfaction with developing a route that makes me feel good. I give back in the best way I know how...sorry if that offends you. I don't deny that nor feel the need to play like it is all community service.
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Post by the lurkist » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:30 am

Sonnie Trotter's piece had it right on. He was talking about cliffs bolted that suffer a spiral of degradation. He was referring to any number of cliffs in the Red.
Bolt them and they will come. I/we have facilitated the increased use of the area and the impact at the cliffs.
If you are concerned about the impact then get rid of the people. Short of that manage the impacts. To this end I think the Red has, ironically, done this very well by dispersing the people. I say ironic b/c this was done by the very act of developing cliff. Folks have developed many disparate cliffs. This wasn't by any design or volitional action by developers, but was dictated by the topography of the cliffs. There is a shit ton of scattered cliff and folks have started bolting a lot of it.

For me, weighing the pros and cons of climbing in terms of bad for earth vs good for earth, overwhelmingly I say good. Why? B/c the more people who climb and come to places like the Red to have a personal relationship with the outdoors, appreciate it for any number of reasons- a perfect natural gym to its aesthetic beauty to its peaceful qualities to shooting your niner at old oil wells... (er, did I say that?)
whatever. I think climbing helps improve the overall environmental ethos of the greater society.
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Post by anticlmber » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:41 pm

im 100% with you lurk.

everyone should be outside, some just need a class or two before heading out.


by the way, how did headstone surfer get its name again?? trad climbing has no impact, right.
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