Who does it belong to?

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Who does it belong to?

Poll ended at Fri May 06, 2011 4:28 pm

Me …
2
4%
Them …
22
48%
Us …
16
35%
Who cares; I’m going to do what I want to anyway …
2
4%
I don’t care, I got my project …
4
9%
 
Total votes: 46

bob
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Who does it belong to?

Post by bob » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:28 pm

Me …
Them …
Us …
Who cares; I’m going to do what I want to anyway …
I don’t care, I got my project …

bob
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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by bob » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:32 pm

For those who may not know me I am Bob Matheny and I own Torrent Falls. I have allowed access to this privately owned crag, albeit on a limited basis, since I closed the purchase of the property in 2007. Bottom line … it costs me a fair amount of cash to keep Torrent open to climbing, (insurance costs, property maintenance costs, etc.) on an annual basis and all of these costs would simply increase with unlimited access and they would go away with closure. This is an issue that should be of some concern to all land owners with cliff on their property and to anyone wishing to climb anywhere in Kentucky. I am not as concerned about my cash outlay as I am about the air of entitlement that seems to exist in and among the climbing community (please see the comments section for Torrent in the online guidebook). The least expensive and troublesome route of dealing with these issues is to simply close the property to climbing. It has been suggested that I create further signage, greater web presence, etc. to address these issues; however, I feel that anything that I have to “do” is an imposition on me and should not be a part of allowing general access to my property.
In a nutshell the climbing community should realize that the easiest way to deal with access issues for private property owners is to close all access and that the response from every climber should be “WE CAN POLICE OUR OWN” in an effort to prevent closure.

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One-Fall
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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by One-Fall » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:41 pm

Bob, I would like to meet with you this week or next to talk over some things and offer some help. Dinner is on me if you have time.


To my fellow climbers: losing Torrent is not acceptable. I personally think it is the best stone in the Red. Please, if you know someone who is breaking the rules, remind them gently to what is at stake. If they still don't listen, I have some BIG friends that can change their mind.

I know most of us do the right thing anyway.
Can't we all just get along?

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clif
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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by clif » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:33 pm

Rick and Liz Weber have pretty strong opinions about this as well. Though, I wonder if it's really just climber's or the sampling. We're a nation of exceptionalists.
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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pigsteak
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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by pigsteak » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:24 pm

If most of us did the right thing, we would not be hearing from Bob.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

KD
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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by KD » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:07 pm

Was it the online guidebook comments that prompted your concern or something else? With all due respect, Bob climbing has been promoted to the saturation point and beyond in the Red for several years now. Every crag is loaded up for the most part on a given weekend with nice weather. It's your land - close it if you feel you should - you can do anything you want with it. That wont solve the issue of entitlement though - the sport has become so mainstream its "just like an outdoor gym..." All the cool kids have come to play partly because they were invited and promoted to. Once climbing loses it's sexiness and once the cool kids get 40 plus with arthritis it'll go away just like all such before.

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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by toad857 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:39 pm

Hmm. Since it was closed to the public, I have only climbed at torrent a handful of times (rented cabins.. great time!). I really don't know how many people are there on a daily basis.. to tell you the truth, I always just imagined that since 2007 the place has been pretty much empty. Apparently not! It makes me sad to think that even with limited visitors the place is still being stressed to this point.

I think that capping the number of daily visitors was a great idea (apparently it isn't enough, but it's definitely a step in the right direction...I always hoped it would evolve into a great model). Maybe also requiring a fee? The trick, of course, is how to pull that off without further imposing on you, the landowner. I agree that you shouldn't have to bother with that. I'm sure the Webers feel the same way about Muir.

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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by toad857 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:39 pm

bob wrote:In a nutshell the climbing community should realize that the easiest way to deal with access issues for private property owners is to close all access and that the response from every climber should be “WE CAN POLICE OUR OWN” in an effort to prevent closure.
Deserves repeating.

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climb2core
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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by climb2core » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:10 pm

I have climbed at torrent once since the gates were closed. We rented a cabin for 4 days last fall and had a great experience. During my time there I noticed three distinct groups: the cabin renters, the guided groups and the locals. My thoughts were that Dr Bob owns the land and may invite whom he likes on hIs property. My understanding of the current situation is that there is now a 4th group... The uninvited guest. How do you get rid of them? Maybe ask the first 3 groups to do more policing. It is hard to provide a solution with only a vague accounting of the problem and extent of it. Torrent has always been one if not the favorite crag of mine and I would be willing to help out in anyway I can. What about a "friends of torrent" that set up a volunteer calendar of checking in on things?

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Clevis Hitch
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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by Clevis Hitch » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:20 pm

Blah, Blah, Blah...Fucking close it! I would. Who gives a fuck anyway! Close fucking Muir while you're at it!

It blows my mind that someone can be the President of the climbers coalition and be all about "Saving access" then the first thing you know its "If we own it they can't close it" .Then its Bob bought torrent to "Save" it. First thing to happen a gate went up...Climbers were told to climbe elsewhere. Then the depth of hypocrisy hits you and you open to "a select few who apply online" all the while its open to all the cool kids all the time.

Why are you on here asking permission to close your own land to climbers. Close it. Let'm drop and breathe a little.

Another amazing thing about this situation is that the RRGCC tells people all the time that Kentucky has a recreation law that prevents landowners from being sued if they allow climbers to climb on their land. Then you carry insurance. Is that insurance because of the cabins or the climbers. It sounds a little disingenious...

All the haters will hate but the truth is still true.
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by KD » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:43 pm

I wish I were a cool kid - I'm not even a Kool-aid kid and I like Kool-aid.

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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by RRO » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:08 am

joe, you truly have no idea on what your talking about on anything you just brought up on the torrent situation. nothing. well maybe other than he should close it and let everyone go somewhere else. but dude, i can usually take your ranting and even see some tiny piece of possible truth, but again, you have wrote nothing valid in this one.

as president he did save the pmrp. its still open isnt it and doing very well i may add. but again, what does pmrp and torrent have in common beside sandstone. private/public, no comparison in actions, regulations or really anything.

bob didnt buy torrent to save it for you or for climbers. he bought it to save it FROM you and climbers. or maybe he bought torrent cause he wanted to buy torrent and have a kick ass place to chill out. let me ask, did you ever make a donation to buy it ? didnt think so, i dont think anyone else did either. its not a nature preserve, its not a [public sport park, its his fucking house, period. he can open , close, kick out and spit on whoever and when ever he wants and that does not relate to the pmrp one little bit. none.

dont think he asking permission. think hes telling folks how it is. if they continue to fuck it up, its gone....again. even a dog learns if you smack it on the nose enough to stop doing what its doing. climbers just cant get it

look it up, it is a law thats on the books. do you really think the conspiracy runs that deep that the rrgcc has made up a law to tell private land owners around the area ? really joe, thats not even a valid point sloshed ass drunk... my guess is if you had more than the shirt on your back you would worry about law suits as well. i wish i could find a cute shaking head guy, but you can get the point....

again you really need to understand what is done for torrent is done for a privately owned tract and has absolutely nothing to do with the pmrp...how is this hard to comprehend ? maybe a picture would help but i cant draw...

they can hate ya, i dont. but to say you speak truth on this one. dude, you have spoken none and really just showed how little you know about the situation at hand. but yes, again, we do agree on something...shut it down, i got a key and i aint even that cool
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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by TK » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:41 am

As a fairly new climber, I was not around when Torrent was fully open to the public. I do, however, know the story and it has always seemed to me that climbers had their chance to act respectfully, and then had their chance to change their actions, and when neither of these things happened, they lost some of the best climbing in the Red. I don't think they really have the right to complain about the consequences their actions brought about (and I'm including myself in that- it is after all, a community- in the end, everyone is still responsible for the actions of a few, and is judged as such.), and should be endlessly grateful to Dr. Bob, first for what he did for the PMRP, then for saving Torrent, rehabilitating it and re-opening it, even on a smaller scale.
And Dr. Bob, I have, every once in a while, heard people bad-mouth Torrent while at other crags, and I can honestly say that 99% of the other climbers have always jumped to your defense, explaining the entire situation and why they should be grateful they can climb there at all, and that if they have any respect and/or brains, they would obey the rules.

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climb2core
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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by climb2core » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:51 pm

Joe's statement does have somethings worth considering. First, the land is Bob's... and that imparts a responsibility on Bob to manage his land as he sees fit. Try this for an analogy:

I own a prime parking lot downtown. It says private and no parking. However, I let people that pay me park there and my buddies can park there for free. Now 99% of the other drivers find other places to park downtown, but there are always a couple dicks each week that ignore my signs and sneak in and park on my lot. As the owner, I get pissed and take out a billboard saying, if you don't stop parking on my lot illegally I am going to turn the parking lot into a mud hole that no one will be able to park in, unless all you drivers police those people illegally parking. (In effect what Bob is doing by putting out this thread on this public forum)

My question to Bob... why should the 99% of climbers that come to the Red and DO NOT climb illegally OR legally care what happens on your property? In short, It is not there problem and they have no vested interest in trying to be part of the solution. Now if you are one of the few that rent a cabin to climb...you might care, but you are PAYING for the privilege to climb. However, it seems to me that the very select few that have unpaid for climbing privileges should and do care. They are the ones you should be asking to help you out, because they benefit from the bolts not being chopped. I would be willing to help out in a heart beat anyway I could if it meant an opportunity to climb more often than the 4 days I can afford to rent a cabin.

By the way, this is not an attack on Bob. Though I have never had the pleasure of meeting you, I have tremendous respect for what you have contributed to climbing at the Red. Send me a pm if you are looking for Stewards of Torrent Falls, and for few more opportunities to climb there I am your man.

Also wanted to add, you should have Torrent Falls removed from the online guidebook and future paper versions. The fact that it is in there implies some level of comparability and accessibility to the rest of the Red, which is simply not the case.

Ian

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Re: Who does it belong to?

Post by Lateralus » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:11 pm

bob,
pay the guidebook comments no heed, most are just kids with nothing better to do than run their mouths off.
Thank you for purchasing Torrent and keeping it open. While it is "limited", and why shouldn't it be, it's your land
to do with what you wish. I enjoy much about the Torrent propery, about 5 years
ago or so my son and I had a very cool experience there. He outclimbed a bunch of adults and then we "sprinted" to the top of the bluff to observe the waterfull from the top, he really felt like he was on top of the world that day. He really gained a lot of confidence in himself that day and I will never forget it. While I believe Mark owned the property at the time, just knowing it's still open for someone to have a similar experience is reassuring. The climbing is obviously awesome and I hope to someday rent a cabin and have world class cliffs right out the doorway at first light, it doesn't get better than that. Next time I come down there if there is anything I can do to volunteer my time to assist you in anyway please give me a private message and I'll do what I can to uphold the good name of so many unselfish (rule following ) people who call themselves climbers.
Locals please do what you got to do to keep the morons OUT, expose them, ridicule them, poop in their packs (as long as that's OK with Bob), whatever it takes let them know they aren't welcome if they can't follow the rules!
"Good things take time, impossible things take a little longer"
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