ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

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aburgoon
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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by aburgoon » Tue May 24, 2011 5:41 pm

SS wrote:
pigsteak wrote:pink elephant appearing....are these Ed Mank's work?
I believe the draws on the Return of Chris Snyder and Way up Yonder were from Mank. He is def not going to get the msg from this board, I would just strip them if your headed that way and bring them by Miguel's.
I called Ed and emailed his number to the OP.

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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by Shamis » Tue May 24, 2011 5:48 pm

Sad to hear this, but totally warranted.

The only way to thin the herd is to either strip the bolts and make it trad only, or start charging money to go there. Or just keep it closed.

Ultimately I think a lot of crags will need to have some kind of management fee associated with them to pay for maintenance and decrease demand to go there. Climbing is too popular, and the only way to control a limited resource is to raise the price, of course that means you need a way of enforcing it...

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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by pigsteak » Tue May 24, 2011 5:50 pm

OP? Is that the onsight police?
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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by weber » Tue May 24, 2011 5:50 pm

pigsteak wrote:Muir could be closed in sections like Art says..you know, close the Surf for 6 months, then Bruise brothers for six months..... then again, the real answer to Muir is smaller parking area.
But wouldn't a smaller lot just turn folks away to overcrowd parking lots at other areas? And some of these lots, such as the The Sore Heel, are already in absurdly poor condition. Parking for many of the DBNF areas is almost non-existent.

I don't see anything on the horizon that will turn around the current growth trend in this sport. Gas prices go through the roof, and we see record numbers of visitors. Even if the end-of-days rapture does come about, darned near all us rock climbers will be left here. :wink:

The practical solution is to develop more climbing areas in and around the Red to spread out the hordes. There is an untapped wealth of rock walls out there.

So, go git 'em, Kipp!

Rick
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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by SCIN » Tue May 24, 2011 5:51 pm

I had no idea fixed draws weren't allowed at Roadside. I don't even have it in the guidebook. I can see myself putting a perma-draw at Roadside and not thinking anything of it.

I find it hard to believe that if those permas were Ed's that they weren't safe for climbing. He seems to know his stuff. I also find it hard to believe that if those draws were put up by Ed that he did so knowing he wasn't supposed to.

Maybe now that this information is pretty evident (due to the internet storm which will eventually trickle to those without computers) Roadside should be reopened. It seems like there really was no warning or maybe I just missed it. Shouldn't there be a warning alarm first? People aren't always aware of the rules.

However, if the cliff is being closed also due to overcrowding I guess you'll have to keep it closed until a limit is put in place somehow.
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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by ky.jennylynn » Tue May 24, 2011 5:54 pm

I moved away about 5 years ago, and have been coming home to Kentucky to climb every fall. I am amazed at how things have changed so much in just a few years, including; the number of climbers, the lack of adequate knowledge of less experienced climbers, those in their teens / early 20s with an attitude of invinsibility, and the lack of respect for nature.

Yes, how can we get the word across to these disrespectful individuals, whos actions ruin access for everyone? It will require alot of debate.

I really like coming home and getting on ROCS! I will miss it terribly. Hopefully some resolution can occur this year.

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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by dollyjn » Tue May 24, 2011 6:00 pm

Education, setting an example of what is expected and enforcement by folks not afraid to take a stand and contact law enforcement or land owners when incidents occur.
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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by aburgoon » Tue May 24, 2011 6:01 pm

pigsteak wrote:OP? Is that the onsight police?
Yes, yes it is. They take umbrage with fixed draws and the bandying about of terms such as on-sight and red point.

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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by Kgrr » Tue May 24, 2011 6:10 pm

I usually do not make an effort to do more then occasionally read through these forums, but when I learned this morning that Roadside is closing it really made me stop and think.

My first trip to the Red was about 15 years ago. I was 14 and my brother was 12. Chris Snyder was our guide and the first place he took us was the Roadside Crag. I'll never forget hiking up hill behind him unsure of what was to come. When we arrived we slipped right by the empty "10" wall and hurried our way through the amphitheater as I looked around in wonder at the beauty around me. Chris briskly stepped over the gap which at that time terrified me! We arrived at C sharp b flat etc and I got a very quick lesson in lead belaying...(on an ATC mind you)

By the end of the day I'd toproped everything at that wall, AWOL, and a few others. I loved climbing.

Over the years as climbing has ebbed in and out of my life I have always returned to the Red and to Roadside - I've brought girlfriends, friends, and this spring my 14 year old brother. I've watched myself progress as a climber from the 10 wall, to 11s, to 12s and now pushing beyond - all with benchmarks at Roadside Crag. I have always been conscious of not only how I act, but how my partners and fellow climbers mind themselves at the crag.

I've read through the reasons for the closure - and the posts responding to it. This isn't an issue about whether permadraws belong or not, or if new route development should take place. It is about one thing only - respecting the wishes of owners - whatever those wishes may be. If they said you can climb here, but no chalk... then you don't climb with chalk! If they say you have to wear an eyepatch or a purple t--shirt...then you do that!

We do not have any rights regarding this crag or any other we do not have direct ownership of. We have a privilege - nothing more.

That said - we do have the right to ask our fellow climbers to be more mindful of where they pee, what wrappers and trash they bring in with them (and should carry out) and to respect whatever the wishes of the owners may be.

One simple idea I had as I have thought about this is simply a sign informing people that they are not entering a public park but private land with a simple posting of rules.

Another idea I have had - though I'm not sure of the legal implications (if any) is to charge for access to areas. Maybe develop some kind of license system (annual/weekly/daily?) We all drop plenty of money on climbing gym memberships and gear - why not pay to enjoy these stellar crags?

-Kevin

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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by vertical1 » Tue May 24, 2011 6:21 pm

I understand and completely respect the closure of the great crag that sits on private land, but I always thought it was one of the more "respected" crags. I probably climbed there a dozen times last year, and never saw the trash like is sometimes at other crags, expecially the toilet paper. I am no one was aware of it being a problem putting perma draws on ROCS or Way Up Yonder. I personally left a cleaner biner on Ro and ROCS last year to facilitate cleaning. I feel that people have respected the rules.

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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by climb2core » Tue May 24, 2011 6:35 pm

vertical1 wrote:I understand and completely respect the closure of the great crag that sits on private land, but I always thought it was one of the more "respected" crags. I probably climbed there a dozen times last year, and never saw the trash like is sometimes at other crags, expecially the toilet paper. I am no one was aware of it being a problem putting perma draws on ROCS or Way Up Yonder. I personally left a cleaner biner on Ro and ROCS last year to facilitate cleaning. I feel that people have respected the rules.

I doubt most people know what the rules are... Grant said himself when he started climbing there he had no idea of who owned it. How is the average Joe supposed to know the rules? A prominent sign would do a lot to make people aware that they were climbing on private land and that there are rules.

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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by clif » Tue May 24, 2011 6:44 pm

maybe a watershed moment. roadside has been the keystone crag for a long time.

i loved climbing cause it was a long way from the crowds. i don't get it though. if all these crowds are coming through the gyms, why aren't they satisfied with that? and if they are looking for a richer experience why would they denigrate their chance?

but i agree with The weber. there is a lot of rock out there, use the herd, harness the energy. publicity, magazines, gyms flyers, mig's, word of mouth, signs at crags, ass kickings and shit talking. College clubs, groups, Deadpoint magazine. If you know about climbing, you tap one of these sources.

a cohesive vanguard, problems are opportunities.

Grant-a huge thanks for so many great years, and the free ride. (and John, i think)
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by hypro » Tue May 24, 2011 7:38 pm

Police them!!! I have recently confronted people with attitude about unsafe, uncool behavior (at RS). It was taken coldly and injury was averted. "The weekend Idiot report" is (mostly) nothing but "I saw something dangerous happening and did nothing". Say something. Educate. Give lessons. There is no mentor. Just you and someone about to hurt themselves.

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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by Wes » Tue May 24, 2011 7:47 pm

The only way to change behavior at climbing areas is via mandatory, enforceable access restrictions. While there are plenty of individual exceptions, the climbing community as a whole will never, ever be capable of self policing. Period. A car full of people set to climb at a crag will never see the lot at 95% full, and think "oh, we should find someplace less crowded". Or if they do, it is only to avoid waiting in line, never because they are concerned about their impact - "no single snowflake ever feels responsible for an avalanche". I have seen it all over the US, and I have found creative ways to park at over full lots many times, and, truthfully, never thought of anything other then the routes/problems that await. I even walked right past the NO TRESPASSING at pocket wall when they first went up, because they obviously don't apply to climbers, just ATV's or other people. I hope I have become somewhat more enlighten / informed these days and would do the right thing now, but the masses of uninformed, unenlightened outgrow the reasonable people at a pretty fast pace.

My advice to John and Grant, based on what I have seen at Torrent and other places is to fully close roadside for at least year, then work out a way for mandatory, enforceable permits. Nothing less will cause any changes. And, if you feel that 20 is a good number of people for a day, then set up your permits for 15, because people will still find a way / flat out disregard any limit you set. In three years you will be amazed at the difference in how roadside looks. Torrent was one of the more abused crags, and I shudder to think at what it would look like today without the limits that are in place. Even if it is closed, you can still do informal trail days - those work well at torrent, though Bob has probably done 90% of the work himself, because that is just the kind of guy he is. There are enough responsible climbers that you will have enough support for some trail days if you choose to have them.

As a disclaimer, I haven't climbed in 18 months, and have no idea when I will climb again, though I hope some easy trad is in my not to distant future.

Until next year...
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Re: ACCESS TO ROADSIDE - closed unttil further notice

Post by truthmiracle » Tue May 24, 2011 8:35 pm

I am responsible for the route right of Way Up Yonder. My name is Mike Cook and I did my first rock climb in Red River Gorge in 1976, or thereabouts. I obtained permission from John and Grant to bolt the route prior to doing anything. There was some miscommunication between us, but I did get permission before I did anything, and follow up communication occurred to clarify things. I'll copy/paste an email from John below to substantiate this claim. I apologize to all for the extremely long time it has taken me to complete this route. I know that many have been curious about it and some have expressed an eagerness to get on it. If the land owners will allow it to remain, you'll have that chance soon. The first injury to stop me was serious tendonitis, in 09. The doctor refused me cortisone, so all I could do was stop. The second injury to stop me was a serious skiing accident to my left hip and abdomen, in 2010. I've been doing well on rehab and will be able to send the route soon, if I'm permitted to leave the route in place. If not, I'm sorry. Nothing I can do about that. I have not bolted anywhere else in the gorge, including right of the slabs as an early poster to this thread suggested. The rock quality on the route will surprise you, should you get a chance to get on it. It's much better than you might think it would be, looking up at it. There's definitely better rock in the gorge, but it's perfectly acceptable quality, after initial cleaning, which nearly all RRG routes require.

I hope to talk to the land owners and do what I can to get this cleared up and get the crag opened again a.s.a.p. I haven't been active on this forum, but I will be following up on this. It's more important to clear up the problem with the landowners first. I just wanted to get something posted here today so that folks would know what was up.

Here is a copy/paste of the email where John says I had permission to finish the route. (There was miscommunication that led to the idea that there was more than one route going in. I thought I could just go for it, so I was going to put in 3 or so. When it was clarified that I was allowed one and only one route, that's what I stuck to.)

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John Haight
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Hello Michael,

I just talked to Grant Stephens and he said there are two new routes being put up in the vicinity of the route you were putting up. When we spoke last I said you could finish your route and then fix the anchors on the slab wall. No explicit or implied permission was given for any other routes. I was clear on that and Grant was also. If it wasn't you then disregard.

John
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