PDs at Lode

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Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

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clif
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by clif » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:28 pm

for some reason i'm wishing Spragwa would post a comment about Hobbs and the Leviathan.
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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der uber
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by der uber » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:33 pm

cletuswilcox wrote:Also, any draws left on the undertow for any extended period of time will be cleaned and left at the base of the climb. If anyone has any suggestions for other locations to leave cleaned draws please comment.
What qualifies as an extended period of time? I left draws upfor about a week and was quite happy to be able to come back and take them down myself.

I come down to the red mostly on the weekends. I like climbing at the lode and go there frequently when I'm down. Sure, there can be crowds, but I just haven't noticed all the complaints listed here as being a prevalent issue. Sure, I've seen a dude names Ron go epic on chainsaw a couple times, but he's only good for a few runs per day. I saw a guy take a crapload of hangs on bohica last Saturday, but the only issue there was that he was taking a long time on the route and I just got on something else.

If there were shit shows at the lode prior to this, I'm sure that there will continue to be in the future even without widespread perma draws.

Are you going to strip perma draws everywhere now or is your jurisdiction limited to the lode?

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tbwilsonky
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by tbwilsonky » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:37 pm

i saw someone dog for almost 2 hours at Drive By last weekend. PD's or not I'm pretty sure she was in there for the long haul... unfortunately there's no way to enforce good manners.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by rhunt » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:37 pm

For me i just don't see how the responsibility of safe gear DOES NOT fall on the climber(s) who are climbing or working the route? It's not up to the community to keep climbers safe, it's up the the individual climber, and when you take away the climbers ability to discern what is safe you create the mess we have now. I am just an old crusty ex-climber who barely climbs anymore so my opinion probably doesn't mean much BUT I am really glad this has happened and I really hope it make a difference.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by the lurkist » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:50 pm

Good discussion.
Dario spoke wisely when he said that if nothing else this is spurring a needed discussion. But what is the issue? Is it pds? I don't think so.
God bless Zac, et al for doing something impetuous and rash. Where would we be as a sport without passion? But I think the underlying issue is numbers. There are a lot of climbers coming. This is what we as a community need to address.
Now, I'm not talking about xenophobia. As Dario said, this is the result not of Miguel's, not of Ray's guide, not of Rocktoberfest, (all though those things all facilitate the masses), but of our stone, how good it is, and how many routes WE developed and how close we are to 2/3 of the US population. To paraphrase "Field of Dreams" - "Bolt them and they will come, Ray."
Look, we already saw what happens when a land owner invites the world to his property, which happens to be one of the most popular cliffs in the Red, fails to manage the property, not give any notice of expected behavior, and then is surprised when a shit ton of climbers come to his property and recreate.
If we invite the world to the Red (which we have), and fail to communicate to these typically young adults still very much in a narcissistic phase of cognitive development what is the community expected behavior and etiquette norms, and then we are disappointed with when these folks behave in a self interested way that might be construed as poor cliff line etiquette, then we have no one but ourselves blame.
Here is the take home--> the masses are here, and they need to be managed. How? Well, that is up to discussion. I would suggest mechanisms that require no monitoring and voluntary compliance. I think by and large people will do what is asked of them. I think signage that catches climbers where they are and where they need to be reminded the most, at the cliff, is a good start. Non confrontational statements of baseline how-to-behave etiquette. We could agree on what these ground rules are.
As for pds, I have my feelings on these. I personally like having good solid convenient fixed gear. But I think they are a enabling convenience device for climbers to avoid responsibility and will ultimately fail and represent a potential threat. I don't think Zac and crew taking them down is the answer to the bigger problem. These should be discussed, too, and the community should decide how PDs either help maintain or detract from the optimum safest environment at the cliff.
I spoke with Meadows tonight, and we think that anyone with a voice and a position on these matters should GET TOGETHER and TALK about it.
Here is the thing. What has happened here is an expression of the duality of our love for the Red. But the commonality is that we all love the Red. I think that is a good starting point that we all can agree on, and then talk through what are the very real underlying issues facing the Red.
I would like to call a meeting at Miguel's this Saturday Night at 8 oclock there abouts. If you have an opinion, please bring it. We as a community need to hear all sides and come to an agreement on a few things-- 1. what is the real problem and its extent, and 2. what are some steps to deal with it. That is a lot to think might happen, but it is worth a try.
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by graniteclimber » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:29 pm

Good discussion? You've got a confederacy of dunces asserting some kind of authority on one of the premiere sport crags in the country. You've got an engaged supportive community rebolting with real hardware and ponying up cash to buy safe steel hardware. And you've got some knuckleheads who live in a swamp trying to be big men in their silly little scene. What a sad joke.

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clif
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by clif » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:35 pm

seems like everyone needs their chance to show concern and try to take action, like any good man/woman?
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Redpoint » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:35 pm

You guys say I talk a lot, this topic will take hours to read. I say less talking and more climbing political cartoons.
Image
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Jay » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:55 pm

Redpoint, props for misspelling "stealing" in your cartoon.

I'm just going to go ahead and assume it was some kind of poignant pun based on the metallurgical composition of those draws...
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Redpoint » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:04 am

I have been misspelling things all day. I think all this bouldering is getting to me; I'm totally beat on my rest days. Well you gave me a good idea, here is the revised edition:
Image
"It is difficult to estimate the potential damage of solvents; therefore the middle of the rope should never be marked with a felt-tip pen or similar. Although a danger might be improbable, it should never be ignored." Mammut

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by kneebar » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:13 am

So I'm curious, what is the difference of having permanent draws on bolts. Or having un-necessary bolts in places on the majority of sport routes in the red that could be protected with gear just as safely? Are sport climbers just being lazy not taking a full rack of gear to the lode just for 1 or 2 easy cam placements. The argument is the same just at a different place in time. Eventually permanent draws will be commonplace, it is just the way it goes Zac. I understand your reasoning, but it makes me giggle just a little considering I was around climbing when porters bolts were being chopped for many of the same reasons and the same type of passion was flowing.

Personally, I'm cool with permanent draws on bolted routes. I've had a bit of progression, (or regression ) over time. First I was against "sport" climbs and bolting, ......it's going to bring all kinds of fools. But then once i had climbed a few I changed my mind and really enjoyed it, still thought for years it was cheating and more for practice. The latest change was not really that long ago....less then 10 years, I was against bolted anchors at the top of trad lines. Bad form you know, you got to top out, pull through the rodos, pricker bushes and rap off some tat that we would inspect. Now I'm cool with bolted anchors, first I thought the biggest reason was it cut down on erosion at the top which is true. But now, just nice to clip a couple of bolts and get down without bush-whacking! Call me lazy, I'm a sport wheeny.

Good luck with this one for all the passionate.

Ken

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tbwilsonky
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by tbwilsonky » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:14 am

Jay wrote:Redpoint, props for misspelling "stealing" in your cartoon.

I'm just going to go ahead and assume it was some kind of poignant pun based on the metallurgical composition of those draws...
holy hilarious. +10
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by tutugirl » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:54 am

You can't complain about the masses...right after Rocktoberfest ... after all we invited them to help us pay for the land we are enjoying. You can't say to them the weekend is over so please go home and don't take a vacation which may include the week before or the week after. For other reasons like safety ... wasn't that the reason we bought the permadraws??? I am not sure what the right or wrong answer is to the situation but I think before taking them down there should have been a meeting of some sort which included more than just a few "crew" members...
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:37 am

8 PM Saturday at Miggies...let's do this.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Meadows » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:42 am

Two unfair situations that occurred: 1. The community had something taken from them and it was not the draws, it was the sense of community. 2. Draws were left on the madness cave. Why not remove them?

/Edited to highlight my mainpoints.
Last edited by Meadows on Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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