PDs at Lode

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Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

dustonian
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by dustonian » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:58 am

The Undertow and more importantly the base of the cliff, parking, and the approach trail are not owned by climbers, but rather tolerant and hands-off Beattyville folk (given recent trends this could be construed as a good thing). Stripping the "Ventura side" of the Lode is whatever, but anyone who says hanging and cleaning draws on the Undertow from Resurrection leftwards isn't going to suck ass and take forever hasn't climbed (or replaced bolts) on those routes lately, or is just in denial. Guaranteed to be littered with aluminum tat after one or two seasons, especially once the Permadraw Police follow the warm/cool weather elsewhere. This isn't the first time someone tried to "clean up" the wall.

It's hilarious everyone has been "punished" by a couple of angry twenty-somethings who decided the crag is too crowded during prime season--which, ironically, is really the only time they are around the Red much. Outside of March and October the crag is quite peaceful and relatively empty considering its quality and reputation. This kind of unilateral action is arrogant wankery in my book. How about volunteering to replace old bolts instead of taking a public pee-pee all over the place?

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by tutugirl » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:21 am

I will not be able to attend the meeting not because I don't want to but I have to deliver a wedding cake in Dayton OH at 6PM, this will make it impossible to be there on time...I will leave ASAP in hopes to at least catch the end.

Also if you "the crew" thought that by taking the draws is going to avoid people taking so much time in routes they can't do or not getting on the route because they can't place the draws ... you have never seen someone pre-place each draw with a stick clip...much more time consuming as well as safety issue and you will not be able to take their stick clips away...
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dustonian
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by dustonian » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:28 am

Miguel's on a Saturday night... are you guys crazy?? That's about as nuts as going to the Lode on an October weekend...

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Zach Romero » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:30 am

Things really escalate quickly in the world of online climbers. This will be my first post and hopefully my last. My name is Zach Romero, the same as my username, I'm not hiding behind a vail of anonymity like most. I was also among the "crew" of draw stripping "nazis". I'm not going to give anyone the pleasure of totally explaining myself on a stupid online forum. If you want to talk to me face to face I'm totally for it. If you want to find me it's not difficult. I never felt entitled to strip the draws as many people have said and I don't consider myself a local even though I've spent the majority of the last two years of my life climbing exclusively in the RED. In those two years I've fallen in love with the place and the community. This is were my draw stripping motivation has come from. I'm saddened by the state of the RED and it's decline in the two years I've been climbing here. In MY opinion the Gorge is at capacity, it can't handle many more climbers and especially unaware, irresponsible ones. There's nothing worse to me than showing up to the cliff and seeing the destruction of the place you love at the hands of uneducated, uncaring "climbers". Perma-draws are proven to attract this type of climber, period. The term climber used to be synonymous with preservation and leave no trace, this is no longer true. By stripping the perma-draws I firmly believe that the Lode will be less crowded, see less of an impact and more importantly set a precedent for the future. And yes I will continue to strip draws, as much as I possibly can. SIEG HEIL!
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dustonian
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by dustonian » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:39 am

Zach Romero wrote: Perma-draws are proven to attract this type of climber, period.
Where's the data, Zach? Unfortunately people love to stick clip and dog their way up routes without draws too (as Margarita pointed out, and she definitely knows what she's talking about when it comes to long-term trends in climbing). The people are not going away just because you guys took it upon yourself to strip a bunch of steel draws. If you really want to help you should volunteer to rebolt with me and Andrew, or better yet with the RRGCC or Friends of Muir Valley and get involved with educating the hordes of climbers that are here in spring and fall when you and your bros roll into town. The PDs were put up by a consensus of local climbers and RRG regulars last year to rid the wall of sharp aluminum, a solid majority reflected in this poll.

Thanks for the energy and enthusiasm though, too many do too little.

Cheers
Dustin

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by goodguy » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:54 am

So did you throw the draws in the trash or what? Lots of money went to these as well, if someone stole my shit I would beat their ass.
Oh man, he is messing that up. However, he is missing his left leg so that way would probably be harder for him. SCIN, just before spraying some beta for a climber doing a route the WRONG way.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:57 am

Zach Romero wrote: I never felt entitled to strip the draws ... This is were my draw stripping motivation has come from.
You obviously DO feel entitled to strip draws. You and your crew have elected yourself stewards of the Red. While I believe your intent is good I believe your logic is critically flawed and your actions irresponsible and in-effective.
Zach Romero wrote:In MY opinion the Gorge is at capacity, it can't handle many more climbers and especially unaware, irresponsible ones. There's nothing worse to me than showing up to the cliff and seeing the destruction of the place you love at the hands of uneducated, uncaring "climbers". Perma-draws are proven to attract this type of climber, period.

What evidence do you have support this theory? Have you ever been to Bruisebrothers or Practice wall? Are all those walls covered in PDs? You logic is not correct. Removing the PD's will not remove the uneducated and uncaring climber. They will still show up and hang dog "your" warm-ups. Only through education will we have better caretakers of the land.
Zach Romero wrote: And yes I will continue to strip draws, as much as I possibly can.
Start and finish with your project, please. Without direction from the land owner, this is where your authority begins and ends.

My name is Ian Kirk. I can't make this Saturday, but I am pretty sure the community of the Red will choose a safer and more well thought out plan for management of climbing impact. I would expect you and your Nazi CREW to respect the educated voice of reason and experience.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Zach Romero » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:59 am

Dustin,
It's simple, the data is right in front of you, I shouldn't have to explain myself. Basically your whole response is way off base. Do some fact checking on what I have done and will continue to do before you act self righteous and demeaning.
-Zach

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by goodguy » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:08 am

Demeaning??

Thanks for stealing the draws dude. Next time do a little bit of research on the front end. Oh ya, stop stealing gear.
Oh man, he is messing that up. However, he is missing his left leg so that way would probably be harder for him. SCIN, just before spraying some beta for a climber doing a route the WRONG way.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Artsay » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:23 am

I won't be at the meeting Saturday night because I've learned it's pointlesss to speak to and have an affect on angry people. The actions made by this "CREW" were selfish, elitist, and done in total disregard for the Red River Gorge climbing community.

My only dealing with John Cletus was when he recently used bad form by accusing me of being inconsiderate while having my two dogs with me at the Lode (on FaceBook). He continued his rant by obsenely slandering the lexington crew for bringing their kids to the crag.

John, no one person is any more entitled to be at the cliff than anyone else. I have heard you are hot tempered, angry, and you yourself told me you "can be a complete asshole sometimes". Sounds like you live a life of regret and I hope you are able to figure out how to be happy one day. Good luck with that and if/when you do I'll be happy to shake your hand and take on a deep conversation with you. And to Zac - really man? Why are you being so angry? You are such a better person than this. Both of you need to harvest this energy and be proactive in making a positive change, not divide our community.

I suggest you all get your "CREW" back out there and put back up the PDs that our community purchased and equiped. Keep the aluminum junk down and lead a movement to remove unsafe gear from routes. If you do this, I think you will redeem yourselves.
Does he have a strange bear claw like appendage protruding from his neck? He kep petting it.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by toad857 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:23 am

wow, so they were stolen.

2 years climbing at the red? by your own definition, Zach, you, and everyone like you, are the problem.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:26 am

toad857 wrote:wow, so they were stolen.

2 years climbing at the red? by your own definition, Zach, you, and everyone like you, are the problem.
Yes, the crew is just as much as part of the problem. I don't believe they have stolen any gear though, removed and left at Miguels is my understanding.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by ynp1 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:47 am

I would hope the crew would also not show up at the meeting... I don't think they did this, so they could go to some circle jerk with a bunch of old crusty climbers.

But I have no dog in this fight... I couldn't care less what happens with the PD thing.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:05 am

Dustin- I'm at the RED all spring, all summer, all fall and a good part of the winter. Other than some years spent i chattanooga this has been the case for me for quite some time. I'm curious where you came from and how long you've been around if you think that Peter McDermott, Zac Sands, Dave Rowland, Chris Snyder, Dave Scott and myself (all of whom were a part of removing perma-draws from the undertow) are here for the fall only. I would like to thank you for your contributions in rebolting at the lode. You guys have done a great job. I'd also like to thank you and Lena for not making an embarrassing spectacle at the Rocktoberfest (the RRGCC largest fundraiser) this year. The dyno comp, which is free to enter, is an effort to raise funds for the RRG and the Coalition. It is made possible by donated time and energy and Im glad these efforts were respected this time around. As far as contributions are concerned my normal rate for DJ'ing events like Rocktoberfest and the fundraiser at Miguel's for perma-draws is roughly $500 per night. I have made this contribution 5 times in the last 3 years. That's $2,500 worth of time and energy on my part to help raise funds for the RED and the Coalition. If you'd like to coordinate this year's fundraiser at Miguel's I will gladly pass the torch. I also hope you enjoy an undertow free of garbage and human feces. I have personally packed out two bags of human shit from the undertow this fall. This is a form of contribution which happens on a daily basis at crags at the RED. My point: there are contributions being made you might not be aware of. I'd also like to add that everyone involved in removing perma-draws are the same people hiding in the woods providing security to climbers who have parked their cars in the lode parking lot. If you find these services trivial please leave a description of your vehicle and we will be sure not to interfere with someone trying to rip it off. Lastly, and this is for everyone, if you can't hang and clean your own draws or make a reasonable assessment of an appropriate length of time for a set of draws to be up on a route your skill set as a climber is dangerously low. I know for a fact that their are local climbers at the RED who provide lead climbing clinics. They are competent and are offering a great service to the community. If you are not confident in your own skills as a climber you should take advantage of that opportunity.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:09 am

Michelle- thank you for omitting the fact that I wrote you a formal apology and publicy expressed regret for my posts on facebook.

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