PDs at Lode

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Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

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caribe
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by caribe » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:38 pm

The stone is why we go climbing, likewise THEY will always come for the stone. Cheen guns won't stop em. Let it be--one is not entitled to which the other is not. Let's all try to tread lightly, and where this fails let's educate each other.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by rhunt » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:57 pm

I agree with Piggie, opening new cliffs can lead to more over crowding. Infrastructure like roads and parking lots needs to be addressed before more cliffs are open. IMO crowding is directly related to the amount of climbing available and more climbing means more climbers.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by allah » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:59 pm

Not going to read through all this non sense, but the numbers don't lie. As of now 62% think stripping the lode is a bad idea, this type of poll should have been thrown out first for the whole community to decide on, not just a few. Its part of the evolution of climbing/sport climbing, best not to fight it.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Pumpkin » Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:11 pm

climb2core wrote:
@@@ wrote:Rick said it very nicely, but why not start with climber education and work on dispersing the crowds to new and/or closed areas first. Which I believe if done correctly will mostly fix these "major" issues. If that doesn't work then go to more extreme measures, like stripping all permadraws/project draws from the red, which will result in an extreme negative reaction and rebellion. In my opinion if someone wants to leave draws up on a route then let them, if you don't have the ability to inspect a draw before climbing on it then you are a f'n retard and should not be climbing, and that can be fixed with... climber education and carrying a few spare biners and dog bones.
Dispersing the crowds to new and/or closed areas will not fix the problem of over crowding. Unless you open up another Muir Valley it will just be a drop in the bucket of reducing crowding. Plus most of the new crags have not been opened because of access issues that are still sensitive and being worked out.

It is not always easy to inspect biners when on an onsight attempt. History has clearly shown that people do climb on mank gear and this will continue despite education attempts. There are just too many people climbing that are not at Adam's or Dustin's level of skill and experience.
If you can't inspect biners during your onsight attempt maybe you should change your priorities so that safety comes before sending. Also, climbing is a dangerous activity, inexperienced climbers need to learn how to belay, lead, fall, and do many other things, inspecting gear is just another part of the learning process. I agree that education in general is a great way to improve safety and if people make the decision to climb on mank gear they will have a core shot rope (or worse) to deal with at the end of the day. If the community makes the decision to educate visiting climbers then signs are a great way, and if people still want to be retarded about climbing then let them reap what they sow.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:05 pm

Pumpkin wrote: If you can't inspect biners during your onsight attempt maybe you should change your priorities so that safety comes before sending.
Going from the top of my mind...
I was on a Super Best Friends on onsight and it is at the limit of climbing ability. The crux for me is pulling the roof where you (at least me) are pumped out. You are probably right, that I should take and go indirect and inspect the biner (because I am too gripped to be inspecting it and feeling for sharp edges)... but it goes against my being to not try to fight to send.

You can't ever be certain of the gear unless you placed it. I have used fixed gear when it was on the route I was on, but maybe I will have to rethink that and either start placing my own or start taking if I can't casually inspect it while on lead.
Last edited by climb2core on Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Meadows » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:06 pm

Rick and Shannon are on the path that I most agree with. And that is finding a solution that we will all commit to. I'm personally divided on the topic because I enjoy the "luxury" of the pre-placed gear and recognize how sports/activities evolve (just think where cycling alone has come), but I also understand the pitfalls and possibly the dangers, not to mention the cost to the core group of people who actually contribute.

I hope to attend the meeting (dependent upon my exam schedule). Shannon, does this location provide a conferencing phone line for those who are not able to commute to Lex mid-week? If not, I want to recommend Skype and I will offer up my laptop (if I am present) or my USB phone for someone without a mic but can use Skype. That way, multiple people can skype or call in and participate. I used it a lot for a job and we started using it for the RRGCC meetings and it works well.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Shannon » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:09 pm

Yes, there is conferencing capacity. Thanks for the great idea of skyping!

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by @@@ » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:44 pm

Going from the top of my mind...
I was on a Super Best Friends on onsight and it is at the limit of climbing ability. The crux for me is pulling the roof where you (at least me) are pumped out. You are probably right, that I should take and go indirect and inspect the biner (because I am too gripped to be inspecting it and feeling for sharp edges)... but it goes against my being to not try to fight to send.

You can't ever be certain of the gear unless you placed it. I have used fixed gear when it was on the route I was on, but maybe I will have to rethink that and either start placing my own or start taking if I can't casually inspect it while on lead.
So if you can take the time to place the draw then why can't you take the time to inspect the draw? Oh, by the way, it's not an onsight if the draws are pre-hung.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Pumpkin » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:44 pm

climb2core wrote:
Pumpkin wrote: If you can't inspect biners during your onsight attempt maybe you should change your priorities so that safety comes before sending.
Going from the top of my mind...
I was on a Super Best Friends on onsight and it is at the limit of climbing ability. The crux for me is pulling the roof where you (at least me) are pumped out. You are probably right, that I should take and go indirect and inspect the biner (because I am too gripped to be inspecting it and feeling for sharp edges)... but it goes against my being to not try to fight to send.

You can't ever be certain of the gear unless you placed it. I have used fixed gear when it was on the route I was on, but maybe I will have to rethink that and either start placing my own or start taking if I can't casually inspect it while on lead.
Why would you need to go indirect to inspect fixed gear. If you simply reach out your arm and feel the bottom of the biner you are about to clip into, then you should be able to feel sharp edges. Worn dogbones are also easy to see without having to go indirect. If the fixed draw was not there you would have to reach out clip the bolt, then clip the rope. Same number of arm movements. So really you probably wouldn't have onsighted then if there weren't fixed draws, right??

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:14 pm

Maybe you are much better at feeling your fixed gear when are gripped out and making that determination if the edge is sharp. For me it is much easier (quicker) to hang a draw than to make an evaluation of the gear I am climbing on. Oh and to be clear... I didn't onsight, and fell pulling the roof.

It also isn't about whether or not it makes it easier to climb... Hands down, PDs make it easier. Just maybe not safer.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by THB » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:06 am

climb2core wrote:Maybe you are much better at feeling your fixed gear when are gripped out and making that determination if the edge is sharp. For me it is much easier (quicker) to hang a draw than to make an evaluation of the gear I am climbing on. Oh and to be clear... I didn't onsight, and fell pulling the roof.

It also isn't about whether or not it makes it easier to climb... Hands down, PDs make it easier. Just maybe not safer.
you can easily hang a draw on the same hanger that a perma-draw is hanging from.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by THB » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:18 am

Shannon wrote:Wednesday, November 9, 5:30 pm at 560 East Third Street.
Thank you, Shannon. I'll be there! Hopefully we can get some attendance from the people that are living in Winchester/Stanton/Slade.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:13 am

THB wrote:
climb2core wrote:Maybe you are much better at feeling your fixed gear when are gripped out and making that determination if the edge is sharp. For me it is much easier (quicker) to hang a draw than to make an evaluation of the gear I am climbing on. Oh and to be clear... I didn't onsight, and fell pulling the roof.

It also isn't about whether or not it makes it easier to climb... Hands down, PDs make it easier. Just maybe not safer.
you can easily hang a draw on the same hanger that a perma-draw is hanging from.

You are 100% correct. Just so damn tempting to use.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by caribe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:17 am

Shannon wrote:Wednesday, November 9, 5:30 pm at 560 East Third Street.

= Can we hammer out an agenda?
If we do not have an agenda nothing is going to get done. There will be table talk and socializing and the conversation might get heated about controversial issues, but no resolutions will agreed upon.
= Does the RRGCC own this tête-à-tête or is this meeting aimed at an ecumenism of sorts in the Red River Gorge climbing community? If the latter, then on some level, resolutions from the meeting will be toothless and lack authority save that which maintains good citizenship in the individual--a one-time event that will fade over the months. If the RRGCC is only committed to access, and access infrastructure and is not doing get involved in gear-maintenance then perhaps we need yet another governing body.
I like Shannon's suggestion of a gear maintenance committee in the RRGCC.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:50 am

it is not a rrgcc sanctioned meeting. just concerned climbers.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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