PDs at Lode

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Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

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climb2core
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:28 am

Porkchop,
1.) RS didn't close because of steel perma's... It closed because people didnt take time to find out the rules and respect them.

2.) Your comments regarding PD's are fair. However, what is not reasonable is the manner in which they were removed. I don't know, did someone approach Dario? Before removing them why not try to get a consensus from the climbers? Just sounds very shady the way this whole thing was approached and carried out.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:43 am

the poll is running butt even for and against the permas so it seems that we have a split field on this one.

like toad said, taking the draws down and walking away with them is stealing, making the culprit a low life but clearly one of us. let's not forget that we as climbers are no better or no worse than the next man walking down the street.

to be clear, I am merely trying to facilitate discussion. If you guys all wanted the permas removed, I'd argue for having them fixed.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:53 am

pigsteak wrote:to be clear, I am merely trying to facilitate discussion. If you guys all wanted the permas removed, I'd argue for having them fixed.
LMAO... quintesential Pigism

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by mikeyw » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:21 am

aburgoon wrote: I wish the media would start hyping some other area for a while to take the heat off this joint.
This is ridiculous. What is the media supposed to do? Write a story about Sasha Digiulian climbing 9a at the NEW river gorge? Media follows traffic, not the other way around. The media does have a responsibility, for example: I watched a very famous climber claim the first ascent of a very difficult route in an access sensitive area. You didn't hear about it. But the media is not to blame for the overpopulation of the Red. The Red is at fault. Ask any climber in America if they've heard of the Red and the New. They will say yes to both. So why are there 1000 cars parked at Muir Valley and an empty parking lot at Endless Wall? Because people like climbing at the Red. Blame geology for making sick holds on steep rock that people enjoy climbing on, not the media.

So how do we deal with overpopulation on a global scale? Two ways: Kill yourself and don't have babies. How does that relate to the Red? 1. Don't go to the lode. You are the problem (I am the problem) not everyone else. 2. Don't introduce more people to the sport.

It's a fact that a lot of people are climbing at the Red. Managing the population is the challenge. And managing the safety of that population requires thought. Does anyone remember a time not too long ago when the undertow was not equipped with steel perma draws? I do and guess what, it was entirely equipped with a bunch of razor sharp aluminum garbage that was ready to kill people. It was the consensus of the community that for safety reasons steel permadraws would be put in place. Now they are gone and by the end of the day all those routes are going to be equipped again and by the end of the month there will be a bunch of razor sharp aluminum garbage. I've hung my own draws on a project in a popular area and with a lot of traffic I've seen my halfway decent biners turn to trash in two weeks. That will happen. What throws the wrench in the 'hang your own draws' argument is exactly what I just mentioned. Scenario: weekend warrior from Lexington goes to project Ale 8. He hangs his draws and works it for the weekend. Leaves for the week, the draws remain, comes back, doesn't send again. Next thing you know he's been projecting the route for a month and his quicks are trashed. That is what happens. That is why the Undertow had the garbage on it before the steelies went in. That is why the steelies went up.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:29 am

mike, why in the world would the weekend dude not clean his draws from Ale 8? are they really that hard to hang the next weekend? i realize that crux clips might need pre hung draws...but come on..unless a climber is climbing at the cutting edge of the sport, how about dropping it back a notch and finding climbs where hanging draws is not the crux....no one where care if you have climbed 12a, 12b, 12c or even 13c for that matter...and your mom will still love you either way.

("you" above is not directed at you mike..."you" as in the generic climber.)
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by camhead » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:36 am

pigsteak wrote:mike, why in the world would the weekend dude not clean his draws from Ale 8?
Because of what Mike already said about the sheer numbers and popularity of steep RRG sport climbs. If the weekend dude should happen to clean his draws, sheer numbers would make it incredibly likely that someone else would leave his/her draws on it. The fact that we're even having this discussion, and that your "devils advocate" stance is taking the position that it is, also shows that the prevailing culture at the Red is in support of making steep climbs more accessible with either perma or project draws.

In other words, draws will appear and stay on popular steep climbs whether we like it or not, based on the numbers of climbers and the climbing culture here. Steel permadraws, at very worst, are the lesser of two evils, and are pragmatically necessary for safety reasons.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by lena_chita » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:39 am

As outsider, I am not "in the know" of who took the permadraws down, and why. They might have very good reasons that I am not aware of, but would very much like to hear about, before I can formulate an informed opinion on whether it was a good thing, or bad.

Example:

take the draws down in order to keep the area open, at owners request -- good.

take the draws down because 'that will chase away them weakmos who come and dog our undertow wall warm-ups and crowd the place'--bad.


There is a lot of "equipping with perma-draws, then stripping them off" that is going around these days. Mercy the Huff used to have the usual collection of mottley draws. Then it got perma-draws. Now they are gone. Wild Yet Tasty always had draws hanging, now they are gone. Who knows why, not me... I am sure it has something to do with the Forrest Service land, if they have to be off, then they have to be off. Yet there were still project draws hanging on Table of Colors. And there is still the first draw hanging on Wild Yet Tasty. And draws on Legend and Nagipapa, and semi-permanent project draws on Mule that seem to go on and off depending on who is climbing it. Go figure!

Did lack of draws stop me from getting on Mercy? No, and it wouldn't stop me from getting on Ale-8 either. Would I have enjoyed having the draws already there? Yes.

And as a side note, the only tangible effect of this chaotic equipping/stripping-for-reasons-that-no-one-bothers-to-articulate-to-the-climbing-community for me personally is that next time I see a fundraiser to equip some place or other with perma-draws, I'm likely to say, "screw this, I have other ways of burning the money"

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:42 am

I like the idea of leaving a few steel PD's for cleaning purposes for 90% of the routes.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:46 am

FS land does not allow fixed perma draws..there should never be fixed draws at left flank, military, etc...never. you see them, strip them and leave them at the base with a note.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:48 am

again, remove the candy, the crowds will disperse. I can promise you this. people only get on these routes because they do not have to clean them. it is a lazy man's mentality.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by mikeyw » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:53 am

Pigsteak: I hear you, and agree. That would be nice, but Camhead reiterated my point perfectly. We're not talking about what would be ideal, we're talking about what will happen. Again, before the steel draws were there, why didn't the hypothetical guy take his personal quicks off of Ale 8?

Has anyone thought that maybe the draws were removed for the massive glue-in rebolting effort that has been in the works? Maybe the draws just got removed, and then will be put back after the rebolt. Is that happening this week? Though I think that mid-october is the absolute worst time to strip and rebolt the lode....It's going to be pretty embarassing if I created a username and got all fired up about nothing.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Andrew » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:55 am

The rebolting process in ongoing and will take a while, and as far as I know it has no relationship to the stripping of draws.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by lena_chita » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:57 am

pigsteak wrote:FS land does not allow fixed perma draws..there should never be fixed draws at left flank, military, etc...never. you see them, strip them and leave them at the base with a note.
Well, then you'll have to have climbing police checking Left Flank/Military regularly.

It has been a long-standing climbing community practice to leave the project draws alone, and the project draws have been on routes at the Military/Left Flank for many years.
Until it becomes well-known to the entire climbing community that the project draws in these particular areas are a big no-no-no, the draws will continue to hang.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by clif » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:58 am

i got no business posting in this thread, but if what i imagine to be scores of draws on dozens of routes are gone, this had to be a deliberate and coordinated action by a group of experienced (and likely thoughtful) climbers.

also, pigsteak is correct as my own limited 'crew' experience attests, routes with hanging draws tempt the underprepared (draw a crowd)
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by toad857 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:18 am

clif wrote:i got no business posting in this thread, but if what i imagine to be scores of draws on dozens of routes are gone, this had to be a deliberate and coordinated action by a group of experienced (and likely thoughtful) climbers.
i like the idea that masked bandito zorro climbers came in the night and absconded with them for the greater good. they may have even symbolically thrown the chains into the red river, returning them to the earth forever.






i also like the idea that Tryle Tutt learned how to climb 5.13.

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