PDs at Lode

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Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

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DriskellHR
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by DriskellHR » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:10 pm

caribe wrote:
Shannon wrote:Wednesday, November 9, 5:30 pm at 560 East Third Street.

= Can we hammer out an agenda?
If we do not have an agenda nothing is going to get done. There will be table talk and socializing and the conversation might get heated about controversial issues, but no resolutions will agreed upon.
= Does the RRGCC own this tête-à-tête or is this meeting aimed at an ecumenism of sorts in the Red River Gorge climbing community? If the latter, then on some level, resolutions from the meeting will be toothless and lack authority save that which maintains good citizenship in the individual--a one-time event that will fade over the months. If the RRGCC is only committed to access, and access infrastructure and is not doing get involved in gear-maintenance then perhaps we need yet another governing body.
I like Shannon's suggestion of a gear maintenance committee in the RRGCC.
The CC DOES NOT maintain fixed gear. There is a group that HELPS maintain fixed gear.
But i dont think they fool with Permadraws
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:57 pm

mr driskell..I have seen the by laws, and the CC in fact did have a "gear maintenance" crew back in 2002. what happened to it? Tim Powers headed it up at first, of that I do know.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by the lurkist » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:28 am

The over arching issue is climbers behavior. If everyone who climbed in the Red had climbed initially with an experienced mentor and came to the cliff with the behavioral expectations of the climbing community already established, I think we could all agree that many of the accidents, overcrowding, impacts, etc.. would be much less. But the reality is many of the people coming have a paucity of experience.
We can fault the inexperienced user for not knowing safe belaying, how to scrutinize gear, for not leashing their dogs, pooping at the cliff, choosing to go to a packed cliff, but the reality is they will continue to do so, unless we make clear community standards through education. Sure, it isn't a replacement for mentorship, but shame on us if we continue to sit back and watch worsening impacts and conflicts within the community and don't take some responsibility for fixing it.
The community coming together to sort out these standards and how to communicate them has now clearly become imperative.
The Miguel' meeting was meant to be the first attempt to diffuse the PD conflict and establish a discourse to redefine the larger problem. Thanks to Shannon for helping facilitate a more concrete discourse. Please show up for this one.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by DriskellHR » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:37 am

well, I reckon I stand corrected, However I have read the bylaws too, and I found nothing stateing that (2006 revision). I know our stance (at least in my time of involvment) Is that we don't maintain fixed gear. Been stated time and time again.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Artsay » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:58 am

I agree with caribe with the need for an agenda to stay on topic if not just to let people know what to expect. Personally, I don't know if I can make it since 12 hour work days are my (temporary) life for a few more weeks and 5:30pm is working hours. BUT I will try and the agenda will help me know what part of the meeting I will be coming into if I'm late. That said, I'm meeting individually with folks prior that are going.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by captain static » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:36 pm

If the community wants to I am sure the RRGCC would entertain the idea of re-establishing the Climbing Advisory Council or some version thereof. I was a member of the council before I joined the BOD. The council dissolved due to lack of interest and commitment from both the council members and the community. The RRGCC maintains the records of guidelines established by concensus of this council. An abbreviated version of "Responsible Climbing" guideliness is in all of the Wolverine guidebooks (Thank you Ray and Dave Pegg for the donated space). This perhaps should to be our starting point, no need to re-invent the wheel, just some additional statements and tweaking. Here is the most recent (ca 2006) longer version of "Responsible Climbing" guidelines:

Red River Gorge
Responsible Climbing Guidelines

Be aware of your surroundings:
• Find out what the local rules and regulations are before climbing
• Intentionally disperse your activity by selecting more remote areas; avoid the most popular crags
• Limit your group size to no more than 4-6 climbers
• Know whose land you are climbing on and what rules govern the property
Camp and travel on durable surfaces:
• Follow established trails to reach the rock
• Where no trails exist, spread out on durable ground, such as rock or gravel to avoid creating new paths
• Choose a campsite at least 300' from water, trails, clifflines and rock shelters
• DO NOT CAMP UNDER ROCK SHELTERS OR AT THE BASE OF CLIMBS
Pack it in, PACK IT OUT!!!
• All food wastes, including fruit cores and peels, should be carried out (Even fruit can alter the food habits of local wildlife, encouraging their dependency on humans)
• Please pick up trash where you find it. Discarded tape and CIGARETTE BUTTS are unsightly, so bring a small plastic bag for your trash
Properly dispose of what you can't pack out:
• Use toilets where available
• If toilets aren't available, urinate away from vegetation, climbing routes, streams and trails
• Dispose of solid human waste in a "cathole" at least 200 feet away from trails, the bases of climbs, water sources, or campsites; carry your own trowel for this.
• Pack out your toilet paper in re-sealable plastic bags
Leave what you find:
• Avoid trampling the vegetation at bases of climbs and cliff lines
• Avoid disturbance to all living things on cliffs (plants, lizards, salamanders, snakes, pack rats, bats, or nesting birds
• Do not cut, prune or remove trees, shrubs, or vegetation to improve a climb
• Cliff bases and rock shelters have been the sites of occupation by humans for centuries. Do not dig or collect artifacts. Archaeological sites are protected by Federal law
Minimize use and impact of campfires:
• Fire rings and pits at the base of any cliff are UNACCEPTABLE. Campfires contaminate cultural resource sites. If you find one, dismantle it and scatter the rocks in a nearby creek
• Fire rings are unnecessary if a fire is required. Do not make new rings. Use existing rings if necessary
• Cook on a camp stove instead of a fire, it's quicker, easier, and less harmful
• If a fire is required, collect only downed and dead wood. DO NOT CUT DOWN LIVE TREES OR SAPLINGS. Collect only that which you will use. Scatter unused wood after you leave
• Make sure the fire is extinguished completely before you leave. Remember, only you can prevent forest fires
Minimize climbing impacts:
• Chipping or creating new holds is UNACCEPTABLE
• Use removable protection and natural anchors whenever possible
• Use slings when rappelling from trees instead of rapping with ropes directly around the tree trunk. Choose natural colors for slings if they must be left behind
• Minimize chalk use and clean chalk off where you climb.
• Keep dogs on a leash at ALL times
Climber safety:
• Get climbing instruction from qualified people
• Be meticulous in applying your technical skills
• If you see what you believe to be an unsafe practice, let the person know
• Remove loose rocks only when necessary for safety
• Do not top rope directly through anchors. Use your own gear to set up a top rope and then remove the gear when you are done
Climber conduct:
• Respect the intent of first ascentionists. Do not add bolts or bolt anchors to existing climbs
• Know and follow the rules and standards governing the development of new climbing routes
• Be courteous to others and maintain a low profile
• Remember you are in the forest, not a gym. Use earbuds instead of a boombox
• Resist trash talk and using expletives on failed attempts
• When you are finished climbing a route, remove your gear and your rope so another party can climb. It is discourteous to put or leave up ropes on multiple routes and leave them unattended
• Respect the efforts of others by staying off routes where red tags have been left on a project.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by bob » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:48 pm

There is “trash” all over my cliff; what to do? There are draws that have been on the wall for years and bolts and hangers that have been there longer than that. Am I to be held responsible for the maintenance of this gear? When these questions are asked whom do you see as the ultimately responsible party. Be careful with your answer as this individual will be “legally” liable now and forever. As a property owner I have an adversity to risk and a desire to maintain the “value” of my property. I have seen the expense of a lawsuit that, ultimately, was dropped and have no desire to incur the same at any point in the future. The assurance that I cannot be successfully sued is not much reassurance as even an unsuccessful suit is expensive; I hunker down under the Kentucky Use Statute and hope that I never have to invoke it in my defense. Does the creation of a committee that “insures” the safety of “left gear/perma gear” create a duty on my part to comply, inspect, etc., will I have to look to this same body whenever I wish to change something; what if there is a bit of gear on the wall, is it abandoned or is it perma, how do I know, who do I talk to about this … if it is perma does someone certify its integrity? If it is left gear do I need to strip it? Do I ignore it? Once a rule is made on a subject it must always be deferred to. The least expensive option for the majority of land owners is to simply ban the activity that creates the potential liability. I think that personal responsibility for all one’s actions is the best course …

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Horatio Felacio » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:51 pm

all current problems stem from the increasing climbing population at the cliff. this is directly related to promotion of the great climbing at the red river gorge through: rrgcc, fundraisers, sponsors, mass media (guidebooks, magazines, videos, etc.), and word of mouth. wouldn't the climbing community benefit most from a reduction of the amount of climbers? yes.

how to do this: (1) the PMRP is almost paid for. there is no need for large fundraisers involving international publicity and sponsorship. let rocktoberfest, uclimb, etc. die in peace...at least for now. (2) limit access on the PMRP through annual passes; (3) hold off on publishing new climbing areas & routes through this site and new guidebooks until they're obviously no secret anymore.

buying more property isn't going to do anything except relieve a temporary issue. promoting land use and attracting attention in order to pay for new property is going to lead to the same situation several years down the road.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by EricDorsey » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:52 pm

captain static wrote:• Limit your group size to no more than 4-6 climbers
It would be nice if people actually followed this guideline. I am not sure why people think its okay, or fun, to roll up and monopolize an entire crag with ten people. Of course you look ilke a jerk if you call them out..

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by the lurkist » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:41 pm

Horatio Felacio wrote:all current problems stem from the increasing climbing population at the cliff. this is directly related to promotion of the great climbing at the red river gorge through: rrgcc, fundraisers, sponsors, mass media (guidebooks, magazines, videos, etc.), and word of mouth. wouldn't the climbing community benefit most from a reduction of the amount of climbers? yes.

how to do this: (1) the PMRP is almost paid for. there is no need for large fundraisers involving international publicity and sponsorship. let rocktoberfest, uclimb, etc. die in peace...at least for now. (2) limit access on the PMRP through annual passes; (3) hold off on publishing new climbing areas & routes through this site and new guidebooks until they're obviously no secret anymore.

buying more property isn't going to do anything except relieve a temporary issue. promoting land use and attracting attention in order to pay for new property is going to lead to the same situation several years down the road.

I think Ho is talking about the big turd in the punchbowl that we are all drinking from but no one wants to admit we are drinking turd-punch.
Of course every problem could be positively affected if climbers went away. Unfortunately, I think every suggestion voiced here (other than "the final solution" of getting rid of the climbers) is predicated on the reality that the rock is good, too easy to get to, and climbers are coming and/or here, so let's deal with it.

Is it realistic for the RRGCC to stop raising money? Is it realistic that no further publicizing of the Red is going to occur?
It seems unlikely, but just look at LRC in Alabama. No publications, no problems. As far as the Rocktoberfest, I guess the RRGCC would have to weigh in.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Andrew » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:00 pm

Hugh.. If by LRC you mean Little River Canyon, the last time I was there, 6 months ago, there were 20 climbers, 5+ dogs, and one boombox at our little section of LRC. It was worse than any day at the Lode.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by clif » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:40 pm

i think the Red has gone viral, as they say. i'd say i'm starting to hate this thread but i'm not sure what it's about anymore.

you might as well regulate joy and happiness, stop selling on sundays maybe.

the idea that popularizing climbing and developing new areas is part of the problem disturbs me. there definitely is a close correlation. but i can't deny other people the same opportunities i value, they must be preserved though. keeping the bar high may be a useful tool. in that case, PD's are the enemy.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Green3 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:40 pm

I agree with you clif. At this point, the inertia of the Red being a mega-climbing destiniation is already moving. I strongly disagree with the notion that more crags equals many more new climbers coming to the Red. There may have been a correlation when the Red was more unknown, but now since it's generally regarded as the best sport climbing destination in the US, more new crags will not drastically increase any crowds that aren't already coming anyway.

I think it would help alleviate the strain on current crags. To what extent is debatable, and like many have said I don't think it should be the main course of action to alleviate crowds and promote good stewardship of the land, nonetheless, it could only help.

On another note, I am disappointed by how many times I have heard people's ideas and comments (in serious tones) hinting at the notion that those who live near and climb at the red should keep it a secret as much as possible, avoid any climbing media, not tell anyone, blame a guidebook, and keep it to themselves in general. Even if you've climbed in the Red 20 years, unless you own some cliff, you have no more right to climb here than some traveling Euro fumbling up your warm-up. (Shaping the local ethic is a separate issue.) In regards to the mention about LRC above, not spraying about an area is one thing (and sometimes preferred), but actively trying to suppress all info about an area that is on public land, represents a low I would hope most climbers could rise above.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Shannon » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:12 pm

Arthur and Michelle…”yes” there will be an agenda made available prior to the meeting. I am meeting climbers before this meeting to get their input to help sharpen the focus and stay on message. In my other life, I am a paid facilitator and value everyone’s time too much (especially after on a long work day, mine included) to waste it with socializing and meandering :)

Bill…I too do NOT wish to re-invent anything. It seems, at least to me, that this is a natural “next step” in climbing moving from project draws, community draws to steel perma draws and may require more than a tweaking. But I could be wrong. And “yes” I would like to see the RGGCC reestablish the CAC if enough interest can be generated :)

Hugh…thanks for the taking the first steps of diffusing the situation and getting us moving in a constructive direction. I agree climber behavior is the issue but to change human behavior the new behavior has to be defined, then adequately communicated and then re-enforced either through positive and/or negative re-enforcement. It was my read that we had not “defined” the new behavior, specifically installing steel perma draws v. alum draws v. any draws at the Motherlode, so then we can communicate and start nudging climbers in that direction. Thus the call to meet and define by majority (not perfect) consensus what that behavior would look like.

I suggested a decision making process flexible enough to be applied to all the various land ownership/management (beyond the Lode) but consistent, fair and predictable enough for climbers to get behind. I did so with the continuing need to protect access to climbing still very much a relevant issue (again, hint, hint). I pulled out my notes and found the decision making process and policy for unauthorized routes that the CAC had written and adopted in 2004. It’s a great example of community consensus, responsible action to protect climbing and self-policing, at its best. But that is just the first step, defining the behavior, of a three step process. That leaves communicating and re-enforcing to still be worked out.

Bob…I am sorry for you and other land owners who do have to endure the thoughtless and selfish acts of others. You are correct Rec Use Statues will not shield you from a lawsuit, you would still have to defend against it. I completely agree personal responsibility is always the best policy for all things climbing thus my reference to the Express Assumption of Risk doctrine. “No,” no climbing group trumps the land owners wishes or directions nor can it supersede or alleviate liability.

Matt…I agree the increase in numbers is probably the root of the problem and what has brought all of this to a head. Draws have been hanging (somewhere) in the Red for a while, now. Whereas SOME percentage of undesirable climber behavior can be tolerated/absorbed, increase the number of climbers, you increase the behavior and we increase the pressure to deal with it, as well.

I agree, we are victims of our own good fortune to be blessed with such phenomenal rock. Yes, it is tempting to fantasize about ways to suppress the numbers. Yes, I am mad at all the ways the Red has become popular and popularized and long for the quiet and solitude that we can only reminisce about. But the humans who are lucky enough to live in closer proximity to this rock are not any more privileged than anyone else. Yes, I grouse all the time about those “other” climbers messing things up for us “locals” but I know I have no more right to the rock than anyone else, only more incentive to protect it since it is so damn good and close :D

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Clevis Hitch » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:17 am

I have a crazy idea, diversify. give up the idea of buying land, finish the LAC and spread out the impact through out the DBNF. You can grab a trad rack and go someplace other than(?)...and not see climbers all day long. For every one decent trad climb, there is room for 10 sport climbs. Besides, if you go out awanderin' any decent crack you come across to will have anchors at the top from 15-20 years ago cause thats how Johnny rolled...
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