PDs at Lode

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Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

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caribe
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by caribe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:02 am

Clevis Hitch wrote:give up the idea of buying land
NO! Buying land is the only good thing to come out of increased population. By the way let's all welcome the 7.0 billionth baby today.
Clevis Hitch wrote: finish the LAC and spread out the impact through out the DBNF. You can grab a trad rack and go someplace other than(?)
YES! but this has limited applicability. Sportos are more popular than traddies.
Clevis Hitch wrote:will have anchors at the top from 15-20 years ago cause thats how Johnny rolled...
I lack because I never knew him. :?

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caribe
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by caribe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:19 am

bob wrote:There is “trash” all over my cliff; what to do?
If you are not talking allegorically, I will come and pick it up.
bob wrote:The least expensive option for the majority of land owners is to simply ban the activity that creates the potential liability.
Again, if this is not hypothetical, Bob, you are loved. Just say the word; if it is effort that is required any one of many of us could and would mobilize an army to solve the problem. As an owner of land on which people climb, all you would have to do is say the word and climbers would be out busting ass. No need to organize a massive operation or throw shwag on a trail day. You owe them nothing; they/ we owe you everything. We bring our own food and water. We respond to a list of to-do's. We would, will, have attended to needs in a focused and organized manner. We are not even necessarily the RRGCC.

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caribe
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by caribe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:20 am

....................
Last edited by caribe on Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Clevis Hitch
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Clevis Hitch » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:38 pm

Why are you even bothering?
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Wolf » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:46 pm

Clevis Hitch wrote:Why are you even bothering?
Perhaps he hopes to help make this the longest RRC.com thread of all time. Or he still has hope for humanity.
http://contributor.yahoo.com/user/496691/daniel_beck.html

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by clif » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:54 pm

Clevis Hitch wrote:Besides, if you go out awanderin' any decent crack you come across to will have anchors at the top from 15-20 years ago cause thats how Johnny rolled...
:wink: news you can use. history is written by the victors.
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:29 pm

alright, this thread has been dormant long enough..please tell us what drama went on at the Lode today with draws being taken down, and others putting them back up......
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by ynp1 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:18 am

Go look yourself...
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by stix » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:17 am

The quick version. Alli and Kevin were super pissed the draws came down cuz it violated a global consensus. As opposed to talking to anyone involved they emailed Chuck Odette and talked a bunch of shit about shit they didn't really know and called out Dario and Tackett for not getting involved. They encouraged Petzl to think about including bylaws to prevent cleaning routes and removing Petzl's support from the red. Chuck seemed to agree and talked some more shit behind everyone's back based on false shit. Tackett responded and cc'd tons of folks who were being slandered and to open communication. No communication actually occurred as was to be expected, just more whining and shit talking. Finally someone called someone and Chuck and Cletus talked as well as Kevin and Cletus. Chuck apologized to everyone via email and Nick Duttle got the draws from everyone at Miguel's and from what i understand the Lago Linda's folks hung up from Resurrection left to the cave.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:21 am

stix wrote:The quick version. Alli and Kevin were super pissed the draws came down cuz it violated a global consensus. As opposed to talking to anyone involved they emailed Chuck Odette and talked a bunch of shit about shit they didn't really know and called out Dario and Tackett for not getting involved. They encouraged Petzl to think about including bylaws to prevent cleaning routes and removing Petzl's support from the red. Chuck seemed to agree and talked some more shit behind everyone's back based on false shit. Tackett responded and cc'd tons of folks who were being slandered and to open communication. No communication actually occurred as was to be expected, just more whining and shit talking. Finally someone called someone and Chuck and Cletus talked as well as Kevin and Cletus. Chuck apologized to everyone via email and Nick Duttle got the draws from everyone at Miguel's and from what i understand the Lago Linda's folks hung up from Resurrection left to the cave.
That's pretty much what happened. Just so everyone is on the same page I am still VERY motivated to establish an agreed upon ethic/policy on the future of pd's at the Red. There is talk of another meeting in mid-december. I am still of the opinion that routes at the red being fully equipped with pd's, with exception of maybe the madness cave and the cave at bob marley, is a non-sustainable solution due in part to the amount of traffic the red sees on an annual basis. I think that with a greater restriction on pd's at the red we could raise funds and maintain fixed gear with 1 annual fundraiser and 1 annual "fixed gear maintenance day".
I'd also like to take this opportunity to clear up some rumors and confusion that seems to be circulating throughout the community. There seems to be a lot of talk about people feeling threatened at the crags. For some reason a lot of this sentiment seems to be a reaction to supposed "violent threats" and "bullying" made by me to climbers both in person and on this website. To be clear I HAVE NEVER MADE ANY THREATS OF VIOLENCE TO ANYONE OR SUGGESTED VIOLENCE AS A SOLUTION TO ANY PROBLEMS we are facing here at the red. To my knowledge the only violent threats that have been circulating are from Chuck Odette (he sent an email stating that if need be he'd buy a ticket to KY to come settle this "old-school style") and from others in the community who have expressed to Michelle ellington that they will "break windshields" and "cause physical harm" to anyone who touches their quick draws. I called chuck after reading an email he sent out accusing me of using my gun to threaten climbers at the crag, suggesting that the reasons the draws came down was because I am weak and am pissed that pro-climbers are warming up on my projects, asking local buisnesses to boycott me, asking local climbers to "run me out of town", suggesting that my behavior is a akin to generations of child abuse, etc, etc. I'm curious if anyone who feels "uncomfortable", "threatened" or "unwelcome" at the crags has had this kind of dialoge directed at them? Has anyone sent out widespread emails defacing your character, threatening you, asking the community to run you out of town?
I spoke with Kevin Wilkenson for about an hour yesterday before he put up the draws. He expressed to me the deep hurt the removal of the draws has caused him, his wife and "hundreds" of climbers who have visited the red this fall. After hearing him talk about the huge amount of distress generated from seven or eight individuals removing pd's from the undertow without public discussion I have come to the conclusion that the level of sensitivity within the greater climbing community has grown exponentially in the last ten years. For the record I am not interested in dancing around people's "feelings" and when it comes down to it I dont really care if removing pd's makes people feel unwelcome. If hanging and cleaning your draws ruins your trip thats your problem. If climbers excersising their right to remove abandoned gear that they deem unsafe to climb on ruins your trip thats not my problem. ANY gear left on the wall is and always has been considered abandoned and is subject to removal without community consensus. If this is not in line with some vague global standard and causes visiting climbers distress I suggest that you climb somewhere else because this is not likely to change at any point. I would like to say that Kevin was easy to talk to, reasonable and I felt like we cleared up a lot of confusion between the two of us. He seems like a good guy and seems willing to work with the community whatever we decide. I'd like to invite anyone who feels threatened by me to come talk to me, I'd like to clear that up. I'd also like to invite anyone who will break windshields or cause physical harm to anyone who touches their draws to contact me, I'd like to know who you are. -cletus

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by tH1e-swiN1e » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:22 am

Is the crew going to leave them up this time?

As climbers arent we supposed to hang our own gear? Ill agree with whatever the community agrees with as long as this BS is over before spring season, I dont care whether they stay up or not.
More Altitude, Less Attitude.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Artsay » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:21 pm

Cletus - there are obviously two sides to this situation but to be clear....the way I felt bullied, uncomfortable climbing at the Lode, and threatened is on a philosophical/emotional level and what I believe most others meant by this as well.

Personally, I never felt anyone would physically harm me but I did feel bullied and threatened by the statement of what was done. If my perfectly safe project draws were up on a route and I came back and someone took them down to regulate me, then that makes me feel bullied and threatened to not leave my draws up on a project or else they will be removed. You may not agree on this but that's how folks in the non-crew camp have been made to feel. I still believe the underlying reason for this action was to cut down on the crowds which was effectively done because some climbers felt bullied and threatened in these ways and thus stayed away from the Lode.

Definition:
"Bullying - the use of force or coercion to affect others, particularly when habitual and involving an imbalance of power."


If I'm interpreting what has been written/stated correctly, Hugh Loeffler twice said that he would take down draws left on routes. This is bullying and threatening. I don't care if they are not stolen. Until the community agrees on a standard, no one person or small group should mandate behavior others must follow. Would a climber "break somone's windshield" if they took their draws down? No, but the point is that is how this situation caused climbers to feel and I think it's important that we try to learn from this for the future.

I applaud Allie and Kevin (and Nick Duttle and the "crew" and others) for caring enough to work together to restore peace. The general concensus at this point is to setup a meeting in December to discuss this situation and work on getting community involvment in developing a plan for the future.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Artsay » Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:36 pm

stix wrote:The quick version. Alli and Kevin were super pissed the draws came down cuz it violated a global consensus. As opposed to talking to anyone involved they emailed Chuck Odette and talked a bunch of shit about shit they didn't really know and called out Dario and Tackett for not getting involved. They encouraged Petzl to think about including bylaws to prevent cleaning routes and removing Petzl's support from the red. Chuck seemed to agree and talked some more shit behind everyone's back based on false shit. Tackett responded and cc'd tons of folks who were being slandered and to open communication. No communication actually occurred as was to be expected, just more whining and shit talking. Finally someone called someone and Chuck and Cletus talked as well as Kevin and Cletus. Chuck apologized to everyone via email and Nick Duttle got the draws from everyone at Miguel's and from what i understand the Lago Linda's folks hung up from Resurrection left to the cave.
Keenan - You sound upset with what happened so I'm wondering if it's because the draws went back up or because "outsiders" got involved?

I guess I'm confused...it sounds to me like there were good discussions that took place and some miscommunications were cleared up. The draws went up on only certain steep routes, a seeminly peace-making compromise to help get everything back to "square one" so a more community-centric approach can be taken.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by SCIN » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:01 pm

Thanks for the material guys! Love ya!
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by dustonian » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:49 pm

Ha ha. Can you put that cartoon about the ants in there too? What a bunch of choad nibbling buttsniffers...

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