PDs at Lode

[Pumpkin]

Regardless of whether you think perma draw's are good or bad (that discussion could go on forever), why strip them after such an effort to raise money to put them up in the first place? There has still been no explanation from anyone involved or anyone who knows why they were taken down. I'm not a huge fan of perma draws everywhere, but I did give some money to help put them up for safety reasons (because as it's already been said aluminum ones get put up all the time anyways), and I'm kinda pissed that I just threw away my money because someone else decided they had the right/authority to take them down.

[clif]

i think some 'rock stars' are having some fun with the regional 'playerz'

[kafish2]

Kipp, lets play some more devil's advocate here. I saw project draws on many climbs at Area 6 when I went there... why were they there, surely the crew climbing there at the time had the know how to clean draws? Does that mean next time I am at one of your secret crags I can just yank your gear? This of course is on routes that were being projected, and not still in the bolting phase. This is also not a threat, because I would never do that, but more of a question of why you state this hard edged stance against perma/project draws? Maybe those were not your draws but it had to be somebody in your small crew of approved friends at the secret crag during the crags development period.

Again, ideal world, we all hang and clean our own draws. However, we are not living in an ideal world. And yes you are correct to an extent that if there were no perma's at the lode then people would not get on those climbs. I know I would not be trying things in the cave because 1. I would not own enough draws and 2. I sure as hell would not want to hang and clean that project every weekend even if there were a few cleaning draws. What would probably happen is I would hang a few draws, and a few friends would hang a few draws and we would leave them there to get manky. Just honesty and it aligns with historical trends at the lode.

[AlexAndEr]

I don't think removing the perma draws will help with decreasing traffic at the load, because the majority of people will still go there even with out draws on the routes. With perma draws on the routes the climbers get on the climbs and send it or fall and come down, but by removing the perma draws the climbers must remove their draws on their way down, or if they don't/can't make it to the top they will have to go to the top to get there draws down, which prevents a steady rotation of climbers. The time wasted by people cleaning the routes and bolt to bolting routes that were a bit over there head doesn't help with making the load a better place to climb. Let's face it the load is popular place to climb because of the large quantity of stellar routes in close proximity, it is going to be busy, so we should make it run as smoothly as possible. 0eople donated loads of time and money for perma-draws so we could make it safe, fun, and excellent place for people to climb.

[flashmaster]

All draws have been stripped except for the cave and a handful of other routes. PDs have been left on the majority of routes on the undertow for safe cleaning and on all anchors. The hardware that has been stripped has all been labeled and is at Miguel's(the Venturas have had no involvement in this by the way) so if you own any of the hardware you can come claim it there.

[lena_chita]

All draws have been stripped except for the cave and a handful of other routes. PDs have been left on the majority of routes on the undertow for safe cleaning and on all anchors. The hardware that has been stripped has all been labeled and is at Miguel's(the Venturas have had no involvement in this by the way) so if you own any of the hardware you can come claim it there.

Where you one of the people who stripped the PDs? Any explanation for the reasons behind it?

[climb2core]

Lack of the PD's will not decrease traffic. The absence will create more booty though.

Kafish2. You can't compare A6 to the Lode. They amount of traffic the draws will see is miniscule compared to the all day traffic the Lode gets every day of the week.

[Andrew]

Lack of the PD's will not decrease traffic. The absence will create more booty though.

Kafish2. You can't compare A6 to the Lode. They amount of traffic the draws will see is miniscule compared to the all day traffic the Lode gets every day of the week.

I think you are missing his point

[climb2core]

Lack of the PD's will not decrease traffic. The absence will create more booty though.

Kafish2. You can't compare A6 to the Lode. They amount of traffic the draws will see is miniscule compared to the all day traffic the Lode gets every day of the week.

I think you are missing his point

And what would that be? IMO, apples and oranges. You cannot compare project draws on a route at a private secret crag to the same at the Lode.

[AlexAndEr]

What is happening to the steel draws that were bought with donations?

[@@@]

I find it hard to believe someone went though the trouble to strip all of those draws. If so, how about go put them back.

[climb2core]

I would love to have been sitting at that campfire listening to the logic that empowered this group to become the Lode fixed gear Nazi's.

[Pumpkin]

Andrew wrote:

climb2core wrote:Lack of the PD's will not decrease traffic. The absence will create more booty though.

Kafish2. You can't compare A6 to the Lode. They amount of traffic the draws will see is miniscule compared to the all day traffic the Lode gets every day of the week.




I think you are missing his point



And what would that be? IMO, apples and oranges. You cannot compare project draws on a route at a private secret crag to the same at the Lode.

I think the point is: why is pigsteak okay with having perma draws for his ease and convenience at his secret crag but not okay with them being at public areas for everyone's ease and convenience. It is kind of hard to be for perma draws in one area and against them in others.

[climb2core]

Andrew wrote:

climb2core wrote:Lack of the PD's will not decrease traffic. The absence will create more booty though.

Kafish2. You can't compare A6 to the Lode. They amount of traffic the draws will see is miniscule compared to the all day traffic the Lode gets every day of the week.




I think you are missing his point



And what would that be? IMO, apples and oranges. You cannot compare project draws on a route at a private secret crag to the same at the Lode.

I think the point is: why is pigsteak okay with having perma draws for his ease and convenience at his secret crag but not okay with them being at public areas for everyone's ease and convenience. It is kind of hard to be for perma draws in one area and against them in others.

That is easy... 1.) Safety: Do you think you will find ginsu biners at A6? There will never be the same traffic on them 2.) Ownership. Everyone knows who's route and draws those are at A6. If it is on a red tagged project, no one else is climbing it. If it has recently been sent, they have been left up by the FA for his select friends to enjoy. 3.) You have to know that Pigsteak lives in a world of dichotomy... he is always speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

[Pumpkin]

Yes, but the point of the perma draws at the lode was to increase safety. That is why they were steel. Now we are just back to everyone putting up aluminum biners again, and probably contributing to more unsafe conditions. Also, with ownership what is the difference between someone putting up their draws for their select friends versus someone putting up their draws knowing that everyone will climb on them. Secret crags are not "owned" by the person who found them...they are just not public knowledge. And of course piggie plays both sides...