PDs at Lode

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Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

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climb2core
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:28 am

pigsteak wrote:art, you complete me.

awww, aren't you two sweet.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by shear » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:06 am

the lurkist wrote:Dustin is mistaken in that I wanted to or did leave gear. Negative, good buddy. I don't climb at that cliff frequently enough to leave gear there.
Frankly I am with Dustin. The problem is with the mank. Unfortunately the crew did a poor job of discriminating, and if they had only removed the shitty gear and left the PD no one would be mad at each other. I think the thing to do is leave the low easy ones (the easy 12s or anything easily cleanable) hangable and stripable and use the PD of the routes they are needed for. Fewer fixed routes with state of the art gear are more easily monitored.

The mank is the problem and the mank occurs because well meaning people, like you Michelle, leave your gear and then abandon it/fali to clean it for a few seasons then we have faded draws and ginsu biners. That is the problem that PDs were supposed to be the solution to. And according to Cletus and one of his buds, over half of the gear removed was shite. So, if we are to believed Cletus et al, shockingly, shit still happens on the Undertow Wall.

Why am I'm being such a mean contrarian, Michelle? Is that your question? Because I don't want to climb on your gear, and you can't make me. But I may want to climb on the route your gear is on. So unless you hold the deed to the route or the cliff, please do not insist that I use your gear. So lets compromise, if you insist on leaving your gear up a route and don't want to clean it, please leave up the community standard of PD with steal biners. Kay? Then maybe I will be reassured that at least the gear dwelling is not some ginsu biner ready to shread my cord.

And fuck you Ray. Whatever your score is on redriverAnu, and just because you are the high lord priest guide book author with all ripply muscles and a mean arm tattoo, and just because you have your own secret cliff, and just because I have been out for a while, and just because I am old and weak and stiff and smell bad like an old man in a nursing home, make no mistake, Ray. I am coming for you, my friend. I am going for the gold. I will do your projects. I will best your score. I am BACK!
So let me get this straight...every climber going to leave draws overnight needs to have a rack of steel permadraws to leave up on whatever route they are planning on trying more than one day? that's bullshit, not the community/sport/rrg norm, and completely asinine to expect of the greater community. First, there is nothing wrong with aluminum biners, they have been used for years and are completely safe if taken care of. Second, not everyone has a huge budget and can afford a rack of 20 dollar biners, to expect that is ridiculous and you know it.

Police the gear, sure...if it's worn, take it down, if it's not, climb on it...what's so hard about that? There is NOTHING wrong with leaving draws up...it's a standard that's been set in place and not even the Red can change that. If everyone sets out to protect themselves, ie. checking gear regularly, removing worn gear, etc...things will work themselves out. Policing an entire region like the red is an uphill battle with no summit in sight.

I hope you "locals" can come together on these issues...because this looks and reads like you're a divided state...with quite a bit of anger and animosity. I've been keeping up with what's happening there because the Red has always been on top of it's game in regards to access, fundraising, and community. This year is looking quite a bit different, with top tier cliffs closing down, unilateral decision-making, and a lot of childish name-calling...seems like it's time for some of you to either step down or change up your attitudes. Come together or the Red is going to be a miserable place to be.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:04 am

hmmmm, so maybe the crowds will leave if it is miserable at the Red. boom..mission accomplished by the krue.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:12 pm

Lets be real, PD's are here to stay as are project draws. (Except for Michelle's if Hugh is strong enough to get up her projects)

Lets work on finding acceptable ethics for there use and safety...

Issues to solve:
1.) PDs become sharp with time too. If the community is going to put them up, how do we make sure they are monitored and replaced with steel when needed? Maybe Increase awareness that they can be sharp too, and start selling them at Miguels. People could buy a couple to keep on hand if they find a sharp one while climbing.

2.) What routes get PD's? How is that determined? My thoughts are the less routes with PD's the better. I am a 5.12 a/b climber and I have had no problem cleaning ANY routes I have ever gotten on at the Red. The steepest without PD's being Twinkie. It was a bit of a pain, but no big deal.

3.) Accountability for aluminum Project Draws. If you put them up, they better be safe. Also, how can we increase accountability for taking them down?

Maybe an end of year inspection and yank the mank by volunteers?
Last edited by climb2core on Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by shear » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:24 pm

pigsteak wrote:hmmmm, so maybe the crowds will leave if it is miserable at the Red. boom..mission accomplished by the krue.
Funny thing is that the "crowds" aren't complaining at all...it's everyone who "cares". You are all the ones complaining...

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by SCIN » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:53 pm

Shear, very untrue. That's a fact.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by shear » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:56 pm

SCIN wrote:Shear, very untrue. That's a fact.

Ok. I'll admit I haven't been there this season and have just talked to people, out of towners, who have visited the Red. None of those guys have complained, so I was just going by that...

It does seem that this has divided the community though, and not in a good way. That is easy enough to see, yes?

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by tutugirl » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:11 pm

Lets not count that it is the end of November...if the weather had sucked all fall there would be no crowd problem. Soon Miguel's will be closing and The Red will be empty for another Winter except for the locals...the crowds including members of The Crew will go to warmer climates for climbing and bouldering there they will not complain about the crowds or the draws...
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by caribe » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:50 pm

tutugirl wrote:Lets not count that it is the end of November...
+1 Can't argue with this perspective.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by toad857 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:54 pm

climb2core wrote:Lets be real, PD's are here to stay as are project draws.
tutugirl wrote:...the crowds including members of The Crew will go to warmer climates for climbing and bouldering there they will not complain about the crowds or the draws...
There ya go. Can this thread be over now?

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:05 pm

dustonian wrote:Approximately zero? Of the rebolted routes, we had just checked them all during the summer, and many were brand-new steel PDs from ClimbTech. The safety thing is a lame attempt to excuse that big stinky fart back in October. Still, I personally feel removing the aluminum stuff off the 12- routes on the right side of the Undertow was a good idea. Removing the new steel stuff on the steeper routes was plain stoopid.
Dustin- You're wrong. Climbtek's were in the minority of the draws pulled from the undertow. Quite a bit of the non-climbtek steel draws were junk. Safety was a motivating factor in removing the pd's as I stated in the many posts I have made on this website. I can see how you and Ray missed that seeing as neither of you have been constructive in the slightest.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:13 pm

Michelle- If I'm not mistaken the accepted and agreed upon ethic at the red is that any gear left on the wall is considered abandoned gear and is subject to removal (pd's, project draws, etc.) and that this is for liability concerns. This is Hugh's point I think.
Last edited by cletuswilcox on Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by SCIN » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:15 pm

Hilarious. "Minority". That's like "Hey I stole a bunch of cars but most of them were junk so don't get pissed if I took a few good ones". Keep it coming man. I'm loving it.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by dustonian » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:35 pm

cletuswilcox wrote: Michelle- If I'm not mistaken the accepted and agreed upon ethic at the red is that any gear left on the wall is considered abandoned gear and is subject to removal (pd's, project draws, etc.) and that this is for liability concerns. This is Hugh's point I think.
I disagree with this "ethic" as do most others. Just because you had one arbitrary meeting of self-appointed rulemakers does not mean anything was either "accepted" or "agreed upon." Encouraging the wholesale removal of fixed gear in sport climbing is contrary to international consensus and an extremely untenable, foolish, and dubious precedent to support.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:38 pm

Shear- Are you aware that pd's and climber behavior/impact were some of the deciding factors in the closure at roadside? So there's nothing wrong with aluminum biners being fixed on some of the most traveled routes in the world and it's simply a matter of climber initiative to keep the fixed gear safe to climb on. That would be nice. Unfortunately a majority of the user groups here at the red werent taught to inspect the gear they climb on. That must not be a popular clinic within the climbing gym industry these days. Are you going to be contributing your time and effort to fundraise, inspect and maintain pd's here at the red because that will be a monthly reality if aluminum gear goes up. I think the unsafeness of aluminum pd's is about the only thing that there is consensus on.

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