PDs at Lode

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Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

cletuswilcox
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:49 pm

Dustin- The fact that gear left on the wall is considered abandoned was not decided at the last meeting although it was discussed. That was established long before you showed up.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:50 pm

cletuswilcox wrote:Shear- Are you aware that pd's and climber behavior/impact were some of the deciding factors in the closure at roadside? So there's nothing wrong with aluminum biners being fixed on some of the most traveled routes in the world and it's simply a matter of climber initiative to keep the fixed gear safe to climb on. That would be nice. Unfortunately a majority of the user groups here at the red werent taught to inspect the gear they climb on. That must not be a popular clinic within the climbing gym industry these days. Are you going to be contributing your time and effort to fundraise, inspect and maintain pd's here at the red because that will be a monthly reality if aluminum gear goes up. I think the unsafeness of aluminum pd's is about the only thing that there is consensus on.

Lets be clear... it is not the PD's that are problem regarding the Roadside closure. They didn't sneak out in the middle of the night and hang themselves. It was climbers that did it.

Get rid of most PD's except on the steep and very steep.

Spread the word... Place project gear in good shape. Be responsible for removing your gear when you are done projecting. Don't leave your gear for weeks on end if you are not going to be actively projecting.

Once a year, yank the mank. Cletus, SCIN, and Dustonian can share belays.

This isn't that hard.

This is getting so ridiculous. It isn't that hard.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Meadows » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:52 pm

cletuswilcox wrote: Michelle- If I'm not mistaken the accepted and agreed upon ethic at the red is that any gear left on the wall is considered abandoned gear and is subject to removal (pd's, project draws, etc.) and that this is for liability concerns.
Note: that "ethic" is actually more of a legal matter for protecting land owners.
Last edited by Meadows on Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:53 pm

cletuswilcox wrote:Dustin- The fact that gear left on the wall is considered abandoned was not decided at the last meeting although it was discussed. That was established long before you showed up.
You forgot the other half of that ethic. People leave "abandoned gear" alone when it is obvious that they are still projecting it or it is in good shape.

That is why it would be good once a year to set a date that everyone knows about as Yank the Mank. It would help identify the truly abandoned gear.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:57 pm

Dustin- I forgot to add that deeming left gear as abandoned is the ethic of the RRGCC and it applies to the cliffs on land that they bought. That dosent mean that every left draw WILL be removed it means that every left draw CAN be removed.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by cletuswilcox » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:59 pm

Ian- I dont think anyone will be stealing or removing project draws unless the draws are a hazard.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by aburgoon » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:03 pm

I would like to address a misconception that seems to be common here: PDs are not the global norm. I lived and climbed in Europe for over two years, and came across very, very few of them. Leave your draws (aluminum, steel, whatever) on a popular 7c in Ceuse and if they are hanging from the top anchors the next day, count yourself lucky. Same was true for every other area I visited in France, Italy, Austria, Germany, and the Czech Republic. Most Europeans generally hang their draws on a warm-up lap, and take them down at the end of the day. You may have seen different practices in the videos with big name (usually american) climbers, but they are an exception rather than the norm. Just wanted to clarify that point.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:12 pm

cletuswilcox wrote:Ian- I dont think anyone will be stealing or removing project draws unless the draws are a hazard.
I didn't think you were planning on taking any.. but wanted to make sure it was understood that you were not implying abandoned gear was now fair game for booty.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Artsay » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:21 pm

aburgoon wrote:I would like to address a misconception that seems to be common here: PDs are not the global norm. I lived and climbed in Europe for over two years, and came across very, very few of them. Leave your draws (aluminum, steel, whatever) on a popular 7c in Ceuse and if they are hanging from the top anchors the next day, count yourself lucky. Same was true for every other area I visited in France, Italy, Austria, Germany, and the Czech Republic. Most Europeans generally hang their draws on a warm-up lap, and take them down at the end of the day. You may have seen different practices in the videos with big name (usually american) climbers, but they are an exception rather than the norm. Just wanted to clarify that point.
Hey Andy - what climbing areas are you talking about? Were they steep walls/difficult routes? When we climbed at the Frankenjura, Germany there were draws on some hard stuff (13's). Fixed gear is also left on the steep routes down at El Salto, Mexico: http://www.drtopo.com/submitted/elsalto.pdf "Most harder routes have fixed draws, please leave them there".

It's an interesting discussion and I'm interested in understanding more about the different world crags, local ethics, accepted practices, etc. and building a collection of information to learn from. Anyone who knows this stuff, feel free to send me info and I'll document it.
Does he have a strange bear claw like appendage protruding from his neck? He kep petting it.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:27 pm

I like this from the same document Michelle.

"Please adopt a strict Leave No Trace policy when visiting the areas. Bring everything out
that you bring in, and I do mean everything. Primitive camping is tolerated in the arroyo,
so please be kind to the environment."

Guess draws are indeed native to the landscape nowadays....lol
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by shear » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:29 pm

cletuswilcox wrote:Shear- Are you aware that pd's and climber behavior/impact were some of the deciding factors in the closure at roadside? So there's nothing wrong with aluminum biners being fixed on some of the most traveled routes in the world and it's simply a matter of climber initiative to keep the fixed gear safe to climb on. That would be nice. Unfortunately a majority of the user groups here at the red werent taught to inspect the gear they climb on. That must not be a popular clinic within the climbing gym industry these days. Are you going to be contributing your time and effort to fundraise, inspect and maintain pd's here at the red because that will be a monthly reality if aluminum gear goes up. I think the unsafeness of aluminum pd's is about the only thing that there is consensus on.

Cletus...no where did I state that I thought aluminum PERMADRAWS were safe...I think using aluminum as a permanent fixture on a wall is both short-sighted and not even remotely considerate of anyone else climbing the routes. I was merely responding to the Lurkists statement that he will remove any draws up on a route that he wants to climb...giving no time frame as to how long is "acceptable" or even "safe". I agree wholeheartedly with what you say here. I agree that FIXED aluminum draws aren't safe, aren't good for the crag, and put everyone else in a position to clean up a mess that doesn't have to be. However, aluminum project draws (my distinction between pd's and fixed draws is the top biner being a quick link as opposed to just a regular bolt-end carabiner), can be safe if people use some common sense and scrutinize gear and remove as they see fit.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by fyj434 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:48 pm

So must make this one statement about these meeting. Yes people are attending them. But some of the people on this forum have not attended. These people are to remain nameless, ( the last meeting was held 3 blocks from there house) but I want them to understand. They are blowing things way out of line on this forum and are not able to understand what has happened at the meeting, because they were not there for themselves. Before they go on here name calling and threatening people it might do them some good to attend on of the meeting held. I.E. the one in December they might come to an understanding that the removing of the draws were not a personal attack on them or on anyone for that matter, they might also be able to gain a little bit of knowledge and a better understanding of what the community wants. ( OH and work is not an excuse the meeting was announced several weeks before)

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by SCIN » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:01 pm

Hey stalker, how do you know where I live? Freako. Did you come and peak in my windows too? Now I'm afraid.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:48 pm

shear wrote: So let me get this straight...every climber going to leave draws overnight needs to have a rack of steel permadraws to leave up on whatever route they are planning on trying more than one day? that's bullshit, not the community/sport/rrg norm, and completely asinine to expect of the greater community. First, there is nothing wrong with aluminum biners, they have been used for years and are completely safe if taken care of. Second, not everyone has a huge budget and can afford a rack of 20 dollar biners, to expect that is ridiculous and you know it.
Yup. Or feel free to buy 20 dollar quickdraws when your whole rack goes missing because you abandoned your gear.
shear wrote: Police the gear, sure...if it's worn, take it down, if it's not, climb on it...what's so hard about that? There is NOTHING wrong with leaving draws up...it's a standard that's been set in place and not even the Red can change that. If everyone sets out to protect themselves, ie. checking gear regularly, removing worn gear, etc...things will work themselves out. Policing an entire region like the red is an uphill battle with no summit in sight.
Yes leaving gear is wrong as it is more unsafe than using your own gear. "If everyone sets out to protect themselves" is ambitious at best. Should people be doing thing? Yes. Does everyone do this? NO! So unfortunately, it is in EVERYONES best interest to make everything SAFE as possible. And you are right about the policing situation. But you can't police left gear either. But the easiest and SAFEST solution is to say any gear left is abandoned and if you see gear left, it's booty. I don't understand what is difficult about this. While I am not totally against Permadraws and if I had my own wall where the only people that climbed there were myself and a select group of competent human beings, I would totally have steelies on every bolt. But we have to face the fact that with the increase in numbers, comes the increase of uniformed climbers. I have to say something to a group of gumbies almost every weekend that I spend in the Gorge! Unfortunately, we as a community of competent and responsible climbers have to give up some forms of convenience to keep those who aren't safe.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Rotarypwr345704 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:49 pm

...Safe. lol
I fell for the everyone-shut-up-and-ill-donate-money scheme. -Ray Ellington, guidebook gawd

My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.

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