PDs at Lode

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Most Permadraws stripped from Lode today. What do YOU think??

Good
50
28%
Bad
111
61%
[FART!]
20
11%
 
Total votes: 181

chosen1
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by chosen1 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:42 pm

Did I miss something? Did we have an election at the last RRGCC meeting where we decided on a new sheriff or group to police the motherlode for everybody? What makes the opinion of your small crew right? Because you all are "local??.... Dirtbagging down at the Gorge in your van or in the back of Miguel's, or even in the White house doesn't make your opinion hold any more weight than the rest of us. And instead of wasting time stripping draws, that time could have been spent doing something constructive for the area. Sounds like all it did was create a bunch of drama and piss people, who have done a LOT for the community, off. We went in as a community to purchase steel draws for safety, and you all just shit all over that. Hell, Dario had a f'in fundraiser for the cause. And just so there's no conflict of interest, we should all know what projects you all (as in the strippers) are working to be sure you hang draws each and every time you get on the route.

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climb2core
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:49 pm

Steel draws are not invincible. They wear too. CB6 recently had to have them replaced because the were sharp enough to cut you. I agree they are better than aluminum, but they are still not a solution. I don't agree with the way the hardware was removed, but I can understand the why of it.

The problem is they are not addressing the underlying problem, which is as you stated. New fixed gear will go up and will wear quicker. How about this:

New Rule: ;)

No leaving project draws overnight unless they are steel. Anything else left will be considered booty.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by kafish2 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:50 pm

My point towards Kipp was that the same ease and convenience that his crew appreciates at area 6 is the same ease and convenience that most people will continue to seek on their projects elsewell. It is the same mind set, that when working on something, over multiple attempts and over multiple days project draws are nice to have. This will lead to people leaving draws on their projects regardless of which crag it is. Which will lead to mank gear returning to the lode. At least with the permadraws we are going to see less mank.

So having heard rumors of what crew stripped the lode I am wondering if other crags are soon to follow. Namely routes that some of that crew have been projecting that exist at drive-by, such as super charger, or maybe some of the routes at the gold coast. Just curious.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Pumpkin » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:51 pm

Or we could just organize weekly strippings of the lode, for those that don't know better than to leave their gear up....I could use some more draws :twisted:

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by lena_chita » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:07 pm

climb2core wrote:Steel draws are not invincible. They wear too. CB6 recently had to have them replaced because the were sharp enough to cut you. I agree they are better than aluminum, but they are still not a solution. I don't agree with the way the hardware was removed, but I can understand the why of it.
How many of the steel permadraws that were stripped at the lode in this incident were stripped because of their excessive wear? Of course the steel draws and not invincible, they wear down slower than the aluminum ones, but they still wear down. But I have not seen any claims so far that this was the reason why the draws were stripped, and i have a feeling that the actual reason(s) is/are different.

Until someone speaks up for the group that took it upon themselves to remove the draws, and explains the reasoning behind the move, the rest is just making sound waves.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:12 pm

I agree, not too sure about their altruistic motives. My guess is they got tired of seeing the inept hang dog their warm ups and did it to deter people from getting on "their" routes. But as you said, just soundwaves for now.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:30 pm

kyle, the only route I can think of that has PD's at A6 is Diablo. You know of others? My guess if you walked out there today, there would not be a single draw hanging outside of those on Diablo, and there are what, 30 routes there? those draws were paid for and donated (like Lode stuff) by two guys who actually were not part of the inner circle of development out there. I was amazed that they wanted to fix the route, but am happy they did.

I would be 100% for leaving two draws at the anchors, and a solitary draw in the middle for cleaning. It really isnt that hard to clean Diablo, even though it overhangs probably 30 feet in 70. If climbers wouldn't lay around until 11 AM even on climbing days, they'd have time to clean their draws at day's end.

All this talk of "traffic flow", "keeping climbers moving", "taking too long on a proj".......am I the only one that finds this disturbing? Don't we escape our 9 to 5 to get out of the rat race....why for the life of me people would want to climb in the middle of such chaos at the Lode in October? come on folks, there are hundreds of quality routes everywhere in the gorge as good and better than the Lode, minus the people. before you get your panties bunched, the Lode is awesome...but use some common sense, and stay away during this time of year. be the solution, not the problem. so next time you pull into the Lode parking lot and have to do a squeeze job to park, why not move on down the road....

methinks it is more about being part of the scene, of being hipster, having others there to subtle spray for you, and all those freaking fixed routes. the madness cave is the only place that needs fully fixed routes at the Lode. the rest was a waste of your money to purchase steel draws.

I can't speak for the people who took the draws down, but they are doing the right thing by making the gear available at Miggie's. perhaps it is time to re-think fixed draws on every stinking project route. this attitude is what makes land managers look at us as spoiled, entitled brats instead of appreciative of the opportunity to be outside doing what we love.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:45 pm

one other thought kyle...if people removed their draws after a season or after sending their proj, wouldn't we have perpetually new gear to climb on? but it seems people leave the crap until it gets worn out.

and here is a thought that will gain lots of traction with the lazy Lode contingent. Even on a fully fixed route, save the draws and rap every single time you are at the chains. every. single. time. unless they are your draws on the route, and in that case do whatever you want.
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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by lena_chita » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:02 pm

pigsteak wrote: All this talk of "traffic flow", "keeping climbers moving", "taking too long on a proj".......am I the only one that finds this disturbing? Don't we escape our 9 to 5 to get out of the rat race....why for the life of me people would want to climb in the middle of such chaos at the Lode in October? come on folks, there are hundreds of quality routes everywhere in the gorge as good and better than the Lode, minus the people. before you get your panties bunched, the Lode is awesome...but use some common sense, and stay away during this time of year. be the solution, not the problem. so next time you pull into the Lode parking lot and have to do a squeeze job to park, why not move on down the road....
Well, some people might not have the luxury of going to the Lode during uncrowded time. And some people might be looking forward to good temperatures to finally send their projects. The suggestion to get stronger and sent in sweltering August temps is not very helpful, sorry...

Obviously no one is forcing people who want to avoid crowds to go there during peak season. But for people who DO decide to go there, knowing full well that it would be busy, I do not see what the problem is with taking steps to mitigate the effects of crowding by making the "traffic flow" efficient. And for the record, I haven't been to the Lode since this spring, precisely because of the crowds. But if I do go at some point this fall, yes, I am weird enough to expect that everyone else who goes there shares my attitude of cooperation and efficiency.
pigsteak wrote:methinks it is more about being part of the scene, of being hipster, having others there to subtle spray for you, and all those freaking fixed routes. the madness cave is the only place that needs fully fixed routes at the Lode. the rest was a waste of your money to purchase steel draws.
What is wrong with being part of the scene, if that is what motivates someone?
And how would taking the draws off change all that 'part of the scene and subtle spray' thing?

I fully agree with you in respect to the fact that the fixed draws on the Undertow wall are not strictly speaking "necessary". Walls of the same steepness get cleaned every day without any problem all over the Gorge.

But they were not put there by someone's arbitrary decree. The fixed draws on the Undertow wall became fixed because it suited the climbers who climbed there. Because it made climbing there more convenient and efficient, yes. As crowds increased, more routes started sporting draws, and it all happened gradually, but I could see the progression even in my relatively short time of climbing at the Red-- routes like Burlier's Bane never used to have draws, and then voila, the draws were always there...

The fallacy, however, is to assume that if crowds led to more draws hanging at the lode, then removing the draws would remove the crowds. One just doesn't follow from the other.
pigsteak wrote:I can't speak for the people who took the draws down, but they are doing the right thing by making the gear available at Miggie's. perhaps it is time to re-think fixed draws on every stinking project route. this attitude is what makes land managers look at us as spoiled, entitled brats instead of appreciative of the opportunity to be outside doing what we love.
Did any land managers express their desire to have the draws down?

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by kafish2 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:06 pm

Kipp, some good thoughts in there for sure. Thanks for the response. That being said a few points, I went to area 6 before the climbtech draws were purchased so diablo's current draws are not what I am speaking of. I am speaking of both black swan and diablo having draws as well as a few others that were being actively projected at the time. I am sure they are all gone now but at the time they were there. So that being said, I was more hoping you would be understanding of why project draws are placed.

I also agree that if people stripped their project draws when finished then we would have less mank on the wall. However, there are people that have multi-season/year routes, we all know them, and well their draws turn into a more perminant draw as a result. Again, I think that we are not debating that life would be much safer and sends would be prouder if we all hung our draws every day. What we are debating is the real world results of projects.

People have projects, and history shows us that these projects get draws put on them for an extended period of time. It would be safer if this did not happen but it does. As a result, the community seemed to come to a consensus that steel perma gear was a better option in places where perma gear is the norm. Fundraising was done and many donated, committed time to the effort of equipping them. These steel draws have now been removed, by who? For what reason? What has changed since our last consensus and major fundraising efforts?

I understand your points, that if we each as individuals hung our own draws safety would be less of a concern. That access to prive land might be more secure, that we as a user group would appear less entitled. I agree with all of this. I think most people would. What I do not agree with is our ability to change the community mindset enough to change this attitude about perma-draws. People have noted sharp draws in the past and then replaced them with their oldest, most used gear so that it will last until they get their send. People often think their next go is their send go only to find that a month later they have not sent. For this reason there will continue to be project draws. As a community a best alternative was reached and fundraised for, the steel perma draw. Yet a select few have decided they can go in and remove them without warning to the community that it was going against their efforts, withouth any form of justification (leaving us guessing), and without showing us how the removal of perma-draws will be a benefit for anyone (this would take a comprehensive plan to rid the lode of all trash that now comes along to replace the steel gear taken down).

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by toad857 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:13 pm

this thread is setting a speed record. it's expanding faster than a supernova.

considering that nobody's come forward to explain why they took the draws, that's incredible.

(or maybe they have. i'll never read through all this drivel to know for sure!)

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by Sandman » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:20 pm

I should have known the masses of people hiding on the internet would have all sorts of uneducated and ridiculous comments to make. Never being on this website, i only skimmed through the five pages of mostly bullshit because a friend informed me this morning that me and others were referred to as "nazis" (really?). Furthermore, i wont be bothering to read any comments you have to make on the internet regarding the reasons for removing perma-draws, or any other topic. Which is due to the fact that i dont care to have childish, anonymous arguments on the internet. If you have things to say or more, my name is Zac Sands and i am not hard to find if your climbing in the Red.
I fully understand everyone's "what gives you the right" attitude. The CREW of people who stripped those draws (myself included), have no legal or god given "right" to do so. However, anyone else equally has NO right to leave draws... No perma-draws ruins your send or takes you more time?? Well maybe perma-draws ruins my onsight and takes me more time because i have inspect old ratty gear while trying to enjoy a beautiful piece of stone. I will make the statement here and now for everyone involved that the reasoning behind the stripping was not to ruin anyone's climbing day or to hurt there fragile ego when they psychically cant send something with the amazing extra effort it takes to hang and then clip a quickdraw. So, thanks for taking the time during your busy day at the office to read this far, and here is the main reasons. The red in general, some crags more in particular, have become whored out and have turned into everyone's outdoor climbing gym, with ZERO regard to crag and climbing etiquette as well as ethics in particular. This attitude of being able to access and abuse a crag and a route without the ability to even summit/make it to the anchors is totally unnecessary. The MASSES of people who come to lode and other crags with no respect and no knowledge has become simply too much. If you want to climb a route, take responsibility for yourself and realize any consequences. Basically saying... if you cant hang the draws and at least make it to the anchors... you shouldnt be on that route. The general mentality in the Red has evolved into "the worlds biggest climbing gym", where because you payed your $10 to the RRGCC.. you can act how wish, abuse what you want, park where you please, and climb any route because everything is fixed with gear. So why not perma-top ropes, or perma-auto belays, or tape the holds, god forbid you climb something in a good style that you can do in a reasonable amount of effort and time. My point is not coming from the stand point of an elitist asshole, well lets be honest, it is just a little bit. Nevertheless, the "stripping" and others actions that will be taken have the sole purpose of preserving the integrity and ethics of climbing in the Red River Gorge that have been rapidly disappearing. I won't lie, i enjoy perma-draws sometimes on certain routes, especially for training purposes. The thing is.. when it starts to DRASTICALLY effect the crag and access in a very negative way… im willing to make some sacrifices to better the area as a whole. The fact that we have the RRGCC, and that all there efforts have secured so much climbing for everyone is a beautiful thing that warms my cold, hard, draw-stripping heart. My question is… when does there need to be people to help preserve the ethics and take actions to instill them?? The answer is right now. A group of local climbers in the red have had long discussions and decided certain things that need to be done. That will certainly not always produce a happy response from people, and we will never be 100% right and perfect. We now even have stupid link ups, and outsiders bolting routes, chipping holds, and gluing rocks on the wall without some much as asking ANYONE if it is ok (and im not saying they should ask me, so relax a little) What happens when the person fixes gear in the clifty area, or bolts and chips a route on forest service land? It can have a VERY negative response that fucks shit up for everyone. Maybe one little link up is no big deal, but what about when these "jabronies" grid bolt our crags!?? Or start bolting cracks and mixed lines!? So, right or wrong.. me and others will chop the bolts on link ups and on a route(s) that have been extremely manufactured (i.e. "pliedriver" at Shady Grove). I realize the petty drama this will create, I realize that hundreds of hours will be wasted commented on this one post, but i wont read it... I'll be out climbing with other monkeys who care enough to take action and DO SOMETHING other than rant on the internet. We won't be perfect in all our actions, and we may not be the perfect people to do this, maybe others have more of a "right"? But... it's happening. These things will not solve all the problems.. and will create inconveniences for some climbers, myself included. If you climb here enough, then stand up against the destruction of your crags and be willing to take action and make sacrifices. No matter how big or small, climb somewhere else if a crag is overcrowded, leave your six dogs at home, tell people they cant park blocking oil roads, tell them there is NO NEED to heavily chip and glue some shitty piece of rock or link two routes. We have a plethora of some of the best and well featured stone in the world. I take full responsibility for what ive said, what ive done, and what i will do, just keep in mind its not just me who feels this way, and its not just me is taking action. If you desire and need to slander me on the internet, i cant stop you, that is your right as red blooded free American. I would prefer you identify yourself and say it to my face, please dont be petty enough to slash my tires or something. If your emotions are that strong, come hit me in face and try to knock me out with the first punch. I can appreciate a good solid hit. So hang some draws, climb on natural features, have good style, have proper ethics, sack up, be safe and have fun. And by the way, the lode is private property… ever stop to think what the owner wanted for HIS land?????
Its all about Style....

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by chosen1 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:31 pm

Zach, Are you still working that retro-bolted pile of shit Supercharger? Let's be sure to strip that route. The crowds at drive-by were heinous Sunday and that route is crap anyway. Maizy Mae was way better before some "outsider" bolted the top. So, let's chop it....what do you think?

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by climb2core » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:02 pm

nazi - derogatory term for a person who is fanatically dedicated to, or seeks to control, some activity, practice, etc.

Zac, IMO your solution is ill thought out and will not fix the problem. Chop all the bolts in the Red if you want to get rid of the gym rat sport climbers. It will be interesting to watch the outcome of your actions.

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Re: PDs at Lode

Post by pigsteak » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:08 pm

I have an even better idea...let's go thru the online guide, and strip every route with less than 2 stars.

when you remove bolts zach, you do owe the equipper the courtesy of returning the hangers. and please fill in all the bolt holes properly.
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