The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

[dustonian]

Exactamente, Margarita!

[clif]

WMA allows no climbing.

Wilderness management area? State land; county land?

Caribe-if you're interested in opening new rock (well, obviously pigsteak and a few others know a lot more than they're saying..) i'd sure check out the area west of fixer and northeast of the Kentucky river/east of Ravenna. that is an enormous cliffline. as pig seemed to suggest, it's oil country... but maybe you know all that, too.

[captain static]

The Red has become one of the destinations for many climbers from all parts of the world. Back in 1992 only a few climbers visited the Red and Miguel's was busy when there were 15 tents in the back. Most of the growth comes from the sport itself. climbers of all ages and backgrounds. This particular year we had great weather every weekend which it is well deserved after a bad Winter and Spring. Rocktoberfest attracted a huge crowd this year...I think the biggest so far according to their post. We invited them in to participate and to give money so we can have secured climbing areas. Areas like Roadside were closed...and a few over the years...part of Military, Pocket Wall, The Arena, Oil crag....it would be nice to have those areas open to disperse climbers around but I am sure there are new areas soon to be open which are on the process of development. This past Spring we went during the week to Muir and our car was the only one there...and at the cliff, we were the only ones all day long in a beautiful sunny day....days that that reminds me that yes, it is crowded but soon the crowds will leave and the place will go back to the normal flow of the locals...in the process we got to meet and talk to people from all different parts of the world, made new friends and saw old ones...got to share our little heaven with them. Complaining about the crowds reminds me of people that go to church complaining about the sinners in church....after all we are all sinners...

+1

[clif]

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[Jeff]

Looks familiar clif. Believe that's FS land.

[pigsteak]

oh, I thought his picture was one of those things where we were trying to read a "word" in there.

I saw "go away climbers"....lol

[dollyjn]

Pack it in; Pack it out, including banana peels and pet mess. Carry a trash bag and pick up things as you see them. Go above and beyond if you really love the place!
Use judgment to limit numbers based on a first come, first served thinking. And DON"T overdevelop any land, the more development, the more maintenance will be required.
This means more requests for donations and more requests for assistance. And then there is the threat of closing land because people don't behave in a certain manner. Some are allowed privilege and others are basically shut out in one way or another.
Loving where one lives and vacations means enjoying it, caring for it, respecting one's neighbor and guests. Recently I have seen posts in various locations putting down the locals on a variety of levels. Please stop, you are not superior.
Respect the land and the folks who live here.
Thank you kindly.

[clif]

Recently I have seen posts in various locations putting down the locals on a variety of levels. Please stop, you are not superior.
Respect the land and the folks who live here. Thank you kindly.

are you talking about Australia?

[dollyjn]

Sure, Clif

[clif]

Pack it in; Pack it out, including banana peels and pet mess. Carry a trash bag and pick up things as you see them.

Go above and beyond if you really love the place!

well said.

Use judgment to limit numbers based on a first come, first served thinking.

And DON"T overdevelop any land, the more development, the more maintenance will be required.
This means more requests for donations and more requests for assistance.

And then there is the threat of closing land because people don't behave in a certain manner. Some are allowed privilege and others are basically shut out in one way or another.

i feel your passion and appreciate the sentiments but i'm a little lost in translation. do i need to reconcile 'first come first serve thinking' with 'some are allowed privilege and others are basically shut out..' ?, 'certain manner' potentially leaves a lot of room for interpretation and/or exclusion, and 'overdevelop' - i definitely share your concern about expanding too fast and the eventual neglect that follows, but to me that is why the emphasis on education/guidebooks is important.

peace

[dollyjn]

Sorry to hear you are confused. Perhaps I'll see you sometime at the Rock House and we can cover it over a beer.
Ciao

[clif]

excellent, pm me.

Table 2. Outdoor Industry Association Recreation Participation Study
Activity Percentage of Population Total Number of Participants Approx. KY Participation
Freshwater Fishing 14.4 40,331,000 621,235
Day Hiking 11.6 32,511,000 500,437
Mountain Biking 2.7 7,592,000 116,481
Hunting 5.0 13,980,000 215,705
Horseback Riding (total) 3.9 10,816,000 168,250
Backpacking 2.8 7,867,000 120,795
Rock Climbing 0.8 2,288,000 34,513

my question is, do the 34,513 climbers in kentucky represent every climber in the world coming to the Red (duh) or are there really ~35,000 climbers living in kentucky? and what the fuck is a crowd?

more gold-
In some cases local users include people from larger cities such as Lexington, Covington, and Ashland Kentucky.

(this is from the Cave Run Lake Trails Environmental Assessment)

[clif]

I agree with Piggie, opening new cliffs can lead to more over crowding. Infrastructure like roads and parking lots needs to be addressed before more cliffs are open. IMO crowding is directly related to the amount of climbing available and more climbing means more climbers.

i've decided i can't accept rhunt and pigsteak finding common cause. Gentlemen, how is it that additional cliffs create more crowds but additional parking and roads don't?

Please, fight amongst yourselves, i have work. thanks.

[rhunt]

Is climbing more popular in the east just because, or is it more popular because its more accessible? What makes it more accessible - gyms, nearby climbing area, amount of moderate bolted sports routes, cheap lodging and eating, etc? If route develpment at the Red stopped back in 1995, would we be having these over crowding issue? Pigsteak and I would have these conversations back in the mid 90's wondering if climbing popularity was just a tempoary trend. It's my perspective and opinion that due to accessibility of climbing at the Red and the amount climbing gyms in nearby states, is why we have these over crowding issue. There are other minor contributing factors but I think accessiblity is a major contributing factor, which is why I think developing more areas before we can figure out how to manage what we have and the people visting is a bad idea.

[toad857]

i agree that accessibility is a major draw.

but opening up more crags isn't going to change the reputation of the red--it will still be #1 for lots of people. I do think that it will help thin people out.