The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

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kafish2
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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by kafish2 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:19 pm

As I local at the red (I may not have a permamnent address in Slade but I spend more days there than I do at my house) I am not so sure this cut off of media and ridding ourselves of outsiders is the correct action. First of all, I think much of the money that funds the RRGCC probably comes from those that would be considered non-locals. I mean, most Rocktoberfests I have been to seem to have a majority of non-local attendees. That is by far the biggest fundraising event of the year right? Groups from outside the Red like Petzl (through their RocTrip and other donations) and the Access fund have used events at the Red to raise access issues but more importantly funds for our climbing areas. As it stands we (as far as I last heard) have the single largest amount of climber owned climbing in the US. That is pretty rad in my book. That would not be possible if it were not for out of towners. Sure we would have a lot less people here, but we would also have a lot less access to rock.

There are also many out of towners that contribute hugely to the community at the Red. Seigrist and Mike Doyle (especially Mike!) have changed the realm of what is possible. Not only do they inspire locals, breed positivity, but change for many of us what we view as our own limits and our own possibilities. Not to mention the many lines Mike has bolted and/or freed, and the many that Siegrist will contribute when all is said and done, and yes he is contributing. Add to that people like Kevin Wilkinson who comes from Wyoming and leaves his mark with new routes and I see many out of towners that develop and give back at a higher rate than most locals.

Further, if we were to become hostile to outsiders what would that mean for us on our climbing trips. Much of my joy in climbing comes from seeing new areas, traveling, meeting new folks. If we close ranks wouldn't the rational reaction be that we should receive the same unwelcome attitude when we go down south, out west, and beyond?

I am not sure what we should do as a cummunity to correct overcrowding issues. Definitely some education, maybe a change of local gear ethic and crag ethic. Turing away outsiders, I do not think is the answer. Not only is it wrong to say "thanks for paying our mortgage but we don't need you here now" but it is also short sighted. The red is out there, and once a secret is out it cannot be taken back. I am sure there will be a need for funds from our out of town friends in the future for our next land acquisition. And I am sure there is going to be a need for a welcome invite when the winter rains come or the summer heat and snakes appear.

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by shear » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:05 pm

mikeyw wrote:Cletus: first off, I would wreck Sasha Digiulian in a street fight. Last year I challenged Paul Robinson to arm wrestle me. He took one glance at my bicep and declined. Pro climbers fear me. FACT!

Secondly, it seems like your whole stance on overcrowding is contradictory. Looking at it from a big picture perspective it seems like the popularity of the Red can be traced back to one event: the Roctrip. Pre Roctrip the Red was a little known backwater (overall). It also suffered from some serious issues with access. Yes, that event and the coinciding media explosion put the Red firmly on the map. But wasn't that partially intentional? You guys (excuse me 'the crowds') just paid off the PMRP right? You own it now. Would that have happened without 'the crowds' pitching in? That's just one example. It seems you've taken a stance of "Thanks for coming, and thanks for leaving!"

And you can't blame Siegrist for climbing in the Red. He has no ill intent for the region. He just wants to climb 5.14+. So who's fault is it? Kenny Barker's? Do you think Kenny had ill intent when he bolted Lucifer, Golden Ticket, etc... Was it Porter's fault? I think you need to abandon this quest to figure out who or what is at fault and just accept the current state of affairs. The red is the best sport climbing in America, everyone knows about it, everyone wants to enjoy it. Yes they are going to keep coming and yes, they are going to take pictures, and yes, when Siegrist sends the Vader project I'm going to write a story about it and post it online for everyone around the world to see. Those are just facts. Blaming the media is not going to change anything because the media is not going to change.

I completely respect your efforts at trying to preserve the Red and my guess is that despite me giving you a hard time on the internet we're not too different. In fact you might remember that I wrote this last year in an attempt to use "corporate media" for the purpose of education. I did not get paid to write the article. It did not pad my pocket book.

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/vie ... -revulsion

I think we see eye to eye on the state of affairs at the Red. The difference is how you are going about it vs. how I think people should go about bringing social change. And that is with the consent of the RRGCC based on public opinion. As it stands now your actions just look like those of a militant band of rebels... gun-toting rebels! From an outsider perspective that garners little respect from a very large community of people that love the Red.

And lastly, I'd hate to shoot myself in the foot by saying this but... It's dead empty over here at the New. If you really don't like the crowds, why not take a vacation and enjoy 2500 routes on perfect rock with no one around? You probably climb pretty hard. There are 61 5.13a's here, most of which have no chalk. Routes of all styles (some steeper than anything at the Red) on perfect rock up to 5.14b and harder projects. NO fixed draws! Short approaches. You want to bolt new stuff? I can show you 2 miles of virgin cliff that is 100 feet high with zero choss. And if you and any others want to come here, it will lessen the impact at the Red. That would be actually doing something.

*Facebook like *

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by pigsteak » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:15 pm

how is that like Facebook?
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by Clevis Hitch » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:31 pm

its amazing that you suckers cry about your own suckcess! Everyone wants to be famous, but for a lack of character,talent,skill or hope all you fuckers would be somebody on a scale of ones and zeros.

Like little trolls sitting on their own little pot of gold, worrying over it like it had an inherent value beyond its appreciation by others.

Keith didn't have anything to do with your problems. He just takes pictures of the talent.You're just mad because it ain't your picture.

J-S is only here because thats what he does. If you run out of projects, why he'd just shuffle on down the line.
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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by EricDorsey » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:24 pm

pigsteak wrote:how is that like Facebook?
He means he is giving it the "like" which you can do on facebook.

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by camhead » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:49 am

mikeyw wrote: And lastly, I'd hate to shoot myself in the foot by saying this but... It's dead empty over here at the New. If you really don't like the crowds, why not take a vacation and enjoy 2500 routes on perfect rock with no one around? You probably climb pretty hard. There are 61 5.13a's here, most of which have no chalk. Routes of all styles (some steeper than anything at the Red) on perfect rock up to 5.14b and harder projects. NO fixed draws! Short approaches. You want to bolt new stuff? I can show you 2 miles of virgin cliff that is 100 feet high with zero choss. And if you and any others want to come here, it will lessen the impact at the Red. That would be actually doing something.
Yeah, but there are hard moves, the bolts are far apart, and you have to use your feet. No thanks, I'll stay at the Red.
faceholdonacrackclimbDAB!

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by shear » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:49 am

pigsteak wrote:how is that like Facebook?
It was a joke...I agree with Mikey. He's spot on, as always.

-Blake

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by shear » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:52 am

Clevis Hitch wrote:its amazing that you suckers cry about your own suckcess! Everyone wants to be famous, but for a lack of character,talent,skill or hope all you fuckers would be somebody on a scale of ones and zeros.

Like little trolls sitting on their own little pot of gold, worrying over it like it had an inherent value beyond its appreciation by others.

Keith didn't have anything to do with your problems. He just takes pictures of the talent.You're just mad because it ain't your picture.

J-S is only here because thats what he does. If you run out of projects, why he'd just shuffle on down the line.

...and looks like J-star has crags to himself, why? He's bolting routes elsewhere and climbing on them. People should take note and contribute...rather than add to the circus...you might just have crags to yourself...

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by cletuswilcox » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:42 am

I hesitate to write another post on this website because it seems no one is reading what I am actually writing. I have not in any post suggested that visiting climbers, photographers and pro-climbers not come to the red. What I am suggesting is that the climbers who are climbing here and globally promoting the RRG have an impact. I am suggesting that climbers and media as a whole take on a lower profile at the red. I'm failing to see why this suggestion is so offensive to people on this website. FACT-media promotion has an impact on areas. FACT- a lessening of that promotion will have a decreased impact on the rrg. That does not mean DONT COME HERE. It means: WE ARE DEALING WITH AN INCREASING NUMBER OF CLIMBERS AT THE red. MEDIA PROMOTION ADDS TO THIS. PLEASE BE RESPECTFUL AND USE SOME DISCRETION. I'd encourage anyone who is still confused on that matter to talk to local climbing communities around the US to see what has had the most impact on crowds at their area. Bishop, boone, chattanooga, the priest draw, so-ill, squamish (the list goes on...) are all areas that saw a dramatic increase in popularity due to increased media promotion. Im sorry if that offends anyone but it is a solid fact.
As far as the gun issue is concerned it will benefit anyone who has a problem with it to get over it. We have guns, we'll bring them to the crag and we have no intention of using those guns to "steal" draws at the crag. If you'd like to find and confront the thieves breaking into cars with your apparent wit and sarcassam please by my guest. Personally I feel more comfortable with my gun.
visiting climbers bolting at the red- It has always happened and has mostly been to the benefit of the RRG. BUT, bolting link-up's (absolute zero at drive by), manufacturing routes (piledriver at shady grove), bolting new sequences on existing routes (50 words for pump) does, in my opinion, detract from the red. It sets a low standard for new development at the red just as permanently fixed draws sets a low standard for personal responsibility among climbers at the red.

Mikey - I am not encouraging an idea of some militant local police to solve our problems here at the red. Im pointing out an issue that impacts the rrg in a forum about impact at the rrg. Discresstion is my offered solution. I do not share Kenny's opinion that this is the evolution of climbing and "its best not to fight it". I disagree with that.

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by cletuswilcox » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:49 am

Mikey- I'd point out that there are climbers (dave h., adam t., mike d.) climbing the 14+'s at the red with significantly less media exposure ergo less impact. It is possible (hard to believe i know).

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by Pumpkin » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:16 am

cletuswilcox wrote:Mikey- I'd point out that there are climbers (dave h., adam t., mike d.) climbing the 14+'s at the red with significantly less media exposure ergo less impact. It is possible (hard to believe i know).
I think the problem here is the way the pro climbers get paid. The climbers that are climbing hard and not receiving as much media attention are not actively seeking financial support from rock climbing companies. The climbers who bring in the most media are the ones trying to make a living out of climbing rocks. It seems stupid to me that this is a sport where people can bolt a line, most likely grade it harder than it is (not that I would know for a FACT), and then get a lot of media attention for it. Maybe instead of focusing on the people who elicit a lot of media attention you should try to change the system that is pro-climbing. :wink:

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by Andrew » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:21 am

visiting climbers bolting at the red- It has always happened and has mostly been to the benefit of the RRG. BUT, bolting link-up's (absolute zero at drive by), manufacturing routes (piledriver at shady grove), bolting new sequences on existing routes (50 words for pump) does, in my opinion, detract from the red. It sets a low standard for new development at the red just as permanently fixed draws sets a low standard for personal responsibility among climbers at the red.
I think this proves that visiting climbers do a better job of bolting than "locals".

Also, I think some of your facts may not be very factual.
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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by kneebar » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:40 am

Perhaps instead of a media shut down we could use it to our advantage. Write letters to the mags asking for a blanket article on the affects of overcrowding at the red, ask for there help. Get petzl, black diamond on board. Just a suggestion, I have no idea how to implement that. Not a "don't write about us anymore", that's crazy and never going to happen.

I have no problem with the crowds. The impact, jerk-knee reations, poor manners and respect for each other is the problem with the individuals. Outside of that it is parking and access.

Ken

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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by caribe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:44 am

cletuswilcox wrote:Personally I feel more comfortable with my gun.
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Re: The crowds are not going away... So what do we do?

Post by Andrew » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:53 am

kneebar wrote:Perhaps instead of a media shut down we could use it to our advantage. Write letters to the mags asking for a blanket article on the affects of overcrowding at the red, ask for there help. Get petzl, black diamond on board. Just a suggestion, I have no idea how to implement that. Not a "don't write about us anymore", that's crazy and never going to happen.

I have no problem with the crowds. The impact, jerk-knee reations, poor manners and respect for each other is the problem with the individuals. Outside of that it is parking and access.

Ken

I just want everyone to see this intelligent man's post again.
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