2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

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clif
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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by clif » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:15 pm

nice post to read Dr.Rockso.

for the rest, doesn't this seem nuts? i mean, not safe climbing, but feeling some urgency to bolt as many climbs as possible as fast as possible? why not let these put upon 'developers' take a break, leave some undiscovered rocks for newcomers to explore and learn the craft. if people want to put up a route and be proud of it then they'll do the right thing if the local 'ethics', which have not always had an easy way around the Red, is widely agreed upon. if not, there's not much to stop them (pile driver?)

the land is secured which was the impetus behind the rrgcc. this seems like a manufactured issue.....and big thanks to Rick and Liz (I hope they are both doing well) for all of Muir taking the pressure off the FS land and the Clifty.
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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by climb2core » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:59 pm

It never occurred to me that the answer was so simple! I should have just have pulled the 30 or so developers aside and asked them to slow down, relax a bit, and do the right thing.

Got it. Thanks!

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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by dustonian » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:05 pm

Clueless as always. First, there are already plenty of "newcomers" out bolting routes... perhaps 25-30 individuals in Miller Fork alone. Second, the rock is going to get bolted regardless, there is no 'letting' anyone take a break, so the Red needed a means to make the longest-lasting hardware as affordable as possible. The only real way to do that is to make the price of stainless steel competitive with the zinc-plated cheapies. Continual mewling from the sidelines gets nothing done.

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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by clif » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:23 pm

yes. the Red needs to make it affordable for the developers to bolt rock regardless of their willingness to pay for their ambitions?
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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by dustonian » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:26 pm

You still don't get it huh. It's $3-$5 per plated bolt+hanger, this fundraiser matches that price for stainless steel hardware that won't need replacement in ~15 years or less. The route is going to get bolted regardless, do you need a calculator?

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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by climb2core » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:37 pm

clif wrote:yes. the Red needs to make it affordable for the developers to bolt rock regardless of their willingness to pay for their ambitions?
Yes, for several reasons.

1) there is no top down bolting policy
2.) the community has a vested interest and direct benefit in using more sustainable materials.
3.) The soft sandstone required a ridiculously expensive bolt combo which far exceeds the cost of stainless steel bolts almost anywhere else in the US
4.) Over crowding is a problem and the new crags have helped reduce the stress

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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by DrRockso » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:01 am

I don't know of a route developer in the Red that was using stainless 5 piece bolts before this, they are simply too cost prohibitive for a developer to afford on their own. Now nearly every new route going up is equipped with stainless 5 piece or glue-ins. Seems like a no brainer to me, allow them to use stainless for the same price as they were going to pay for the carbon steel and reduce the amount of rebolting and damage to the rock in the future. Many of those developing routes now are the same people who have donated their time rebolting routes in the past.

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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by Cromlech » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:59 am

Ian, thank you for organizing and coordinating the Fixed Gear initiative. I can only imagine how much time and effort you put into all the posts, scaring up swag, buying and distributing bolts. Your efforts are clearly paying off. Thank you for having the vision and tenacity to create and grow the Fixed Gear and Ethics Initiative, plj

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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by climb2core » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:46 am

Thanks Peter. Your support is appreciated, as always. Though Clif may not get it, it is good to clarify our purpose and reasoning.

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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by clif » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:27 pm

hi Ian, do you think it is possible that i am saying something that you don't get? i ask because you have repeated failed to demonstrate that you do by offering responses that did not take what i actually said into consideration. anyway, if you would like to know it what ways you could possibly be mistaken i will outline and try to help, just let me know.
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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by climb2core » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:21 pm

Please, by all means outline your ideas and executable action plan for sustainable bolting in the red.

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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by clif » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:15 pm

good answer. is that what you're doing?
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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by climb2core » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:47 pm

clif wrote:good answer. is that what you're doing?

Outline your vision for development of sport climbing in the Red and how you would execute your vision

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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by clif » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:02 pm

Ian, I apologize, that was provocative and unnecessary.

I should emphasize, I admire what you are doing and may participate, it is definitely an improvement. I am also grateful that you are willing to exchange ideas.

Neglecting the links of your OP and the ensuing thread, obviously, 'sustainable bolting' is your focus. I disrupted your initiative (with pause) because I felt the need to draw attention to that part of climbing which does not involve climbing but exploration, discovery, surprise/astonishment and, i'd add, self-denial, among other, unexpected, things. The Miller Fork property could perhaps offer that for generations to come and i'd hate to let that go just because i couldn't piss off a few dozen people. hurrying to establish more routes, while diverse and unique, seem the 'same' in comparison. i think all the developers out there who you've established relationships with for the better are in it for more than an FA and the recognition in the guidebooks (i may be wrong and i'm sure they all have their own motivations), but the sense of having a singular experience with irreproducible landscapes is not sustainable if we concentrate too narrowly on routes established.

..ugh.
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Re: 2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

Post by clif » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:03 pm

do i have to answer that too?
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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