true story

Placing a cam? Slotting a nut? Slinging a tree?
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Re: true story

Post by pigsteak » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:28 pm

ok so back on task....this was not a sport route at all. but clearly the fa and ffa definitions are not standardized across disciplines. trad climbers will hook or crook their way to the top, and then somehow claim a pure ascent or a better style? surely the three trad climbeds left in the universe jest...

howie wants the adventure of ground up intact, yet mr. day asserts that tina toproping to the last highpoint was the norm...

talk about delusions of grandeur.
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Re: true story

Post by LK Day » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:44 pm

Or so you twist things. Go lead Tower of Power, Meteor Maker, and Last Day and tell me there's no adventure involved. I dare you.
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Re: true story

Post by Spikeddem » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:57 pm

And here I was thinking that El Cap had been free'd

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Re: true story

Post by LK Day » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:13 pm

Spikeddem wrote:And here I was thinking that El Cap had been free'd
Oh, it has. Ask Tommy Caldwell about the style of his ascents. No funny stuff.

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Re: true story

Post by ynp1 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:30 pm

LK day, there is plenty of funny stuff when it comes to tommy's ascents of el cap. He raps in from the top with 1000's of feet of rope and scopes lines. Far from ground up... But he is at a different level then all of us, so...


About the ground up thing... I assume that FA means first ascent. And FFA means first free ascent, right? If you start up a virgin crack and you fall and then you hang dog and aid your way to the top... Did you get the FA? Yes. You can name it and grade it 5.9 C1 (or what ever it was). Then when it goes free, the grade should be changed and if the free climber wants to can change the name, cool.

Push yourself, and climb in the best style you are able to do. Stay safe, but don't limit your capability.
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Re: true story

Post by LK Day » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:16 am

ynp1 wrote: About the ground up thing... I assume that FA means first ascent. And FFA means first free ascent, right? If you start up a virgin crack and you fall and then you hang dog and aid your way to the top... Did you get the FA? Yes. You can name it and grade it 5.9 C1 (or what ever it was). Then when it goes free, the grade should be changed and if the free climber wants to can change the name, cool.
Absolutely, I don't know why some in the RRG find this so hard to understand. Sounds really simple to me, but maybe that's only because that's the way it's been since the beginning of time. :D

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Re: true story

Post by LK Day » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:21 am

As for Tommy's "funny stuff", I assumed it was evident to all that for those who are pushing the limits by freeing the classic big walls, that it was "anything goes" when it came to working out all the moves. When they go for the free ascent, however, I don't think they're dogging the route, just climbing it from bottom to top in good style. If that's not what's happening I stand corrected.

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Re: true story

Post by Yasmeen » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:28 am

LK Day wrote:When they go for the free ascent, however, I don't think they're dogging the route, just climbing it from bottom to top in good style. If that's not what's happening I stand corrected.
I thought the same thing, Larry, but reading Steph Davis' book corrected my thinking. It sounded to me like as long as you redpoint each pitch (even if you fall and try a pitch again), it is considered freed. I think it took Steph plenty of tries to redpoint the crux pitch of Freerider.
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Re: true story

Post by rjackson » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:05 am

LK Day wrote:... I don't know why some in the RRG find this so hard to understand.
Because "some" are bored.
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Re: true story

Post by LK Day » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:13 am

Yasmeen wrote:
LK Day wrote:When they go for the free ascent, however, I don't think they're dogging the route, just climbing it from bottom to top in good style. If that's not what's happening I stand corrected.
I thought the same thing, Larry, but reading Steph Davis' book corrected my thinking. It sounded to me like as long as you redpoint each pitch (even if you fall and try a pitch again), it is considered freed. I think it took Steph plenty of tries to redpoint the crux pitch of Freerider.
Yas,
That's the way it's always been in multi-pitch trad. It's not at all the same as "sending" a one pitch sport route. Of course the best style is always "first try, no falls". But let's say you're attempting an 11 pitch route and fall on pitch 8. As long as you try it again, and succeed you're free ascent has not been invalidated. Even here, style matters. The best style is to lower to the beginning of the pitch and start over. However, some mountaineering type considerations enter into the picture. On big climbs speed matters as you're often racing against darkness or weather and people don't always lower, as nobody wants to get benighted or struck by lightning. It is very common for a leader that's fallen to simply lower to a spot where they can rest without tension from the rope, then try again. If they succeed they feel like they've "freed" the pitch. Very few people ever had a problem with calling a pitch lead in this manner anything but a successful free lead. After all, the leader could have just broken the pitch into two, set up a belay, and then started the next pitch from there. What has NEVER been considered free climbing is to take, rest on tension, and then proceed. That's not free climbing, sport or trad, and never has been.

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Re: true story

Post by pigsteak » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:19 am

so let me throw out a scenario on the climb that started this entire thread....let's say I led it to ten foot from the chains and I fell (foot broke let's say)...I then lowered 5 feet to where I could get a jug and then continued on to the chains with no more falls. Am I correct that this is a FFA?

scenario two..I lead and fall at the same place. I lower and my buddy top ropes to that high point and then leads on to the chains. Also a FFA correct?
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Re: true story

Post by camhead » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:25 am

LK Day wrote:It is very common for a leader that's fallen to simply lower to a spot where they can rest without tension from the rope, then try again. If they succeed they feel like they've "freed" the pitch. Very few people ever had a problem with calling a pitch lead in this manner anything but a successful free lead. After all, the leader could have just broken the pitch into two, set up a belay, and then started the next pitch from there. What has NEVER been considered free climbing is to take, rest on tension, and then proceed. That's not free climbing, sport or trad, and never has been.
Or, more dubiously, you could do what Skinner and Piana did on the Salathe headwall, and break a long, relentless pitch into two shorter ones with a hanging belay, giving yourself an "unnatural" rest in the middle of the difficulties.
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Re: true story

Post by LK Day » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:25 am

One qualification on my last statement. I'm talking American Rules here. Probably everyone has heard the expression "free french". In the Alps it wasn't considered aid climbing up until the point where you actually stood in etriers. I remember laughing as we watched French climbers in Eldorado Canyon pulling on slings, standing on pitons, doing anything to move up the rock as quickly as possible. They certainly considered what they were doing to be "free climbing" as nobody was actually standing in slings. Man, they were fast, something of profound importance to them considering their home turf. I used to climb with a guy named Robert Warren who did a lot in the Black Canyon of the Gunnison. A fine free climber, the man was a sight to behold when it came to aiding on a free rack. If you were on a wall with him and the weather went to shit he could absolutely swarm up the route, aid, free, all beautifully and seamlessly blended. The only thing that mattered was UP, NOW! We didn't consider that free climbing of course, but what an important skill to possess.

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Re: true story

Post by LK Day » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:39 am

pigsteak wrote:so let me throw out a scenario on the climb that started this entire thread....let's say I led it to ten foot from the chains and I fell (foot broke let's say)...I then lowered 5 feet to where I could get a jug and then continued on to the chains with no more falls. Am I correct that this is a FFA?

scenario two..I lead and fall at the same place. I lower and my buddy top ropes to that high point and then leads on to the chains. Also a FFA correct?
Very poor style! But, yeah, in a lot of places that would be considered the FFA. I once did a route like that - Black Death. Me and Pearsall gang banged the hell out of it. When one of us fell we'd just lower, swap ends of the rope, then the next guy would lead. The big horizontal flake we were climbing was dirty to the extreme. I recall hanging from that thing and literally shoveling deep sand, bones and all manner of filth directly on us as we worked our way out to where one could turn the roof. Nasty! Tons of people saw the whole thing happen. Later the route turned up in the guide book as a free line. Could'a knocked me over with a feather.

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Re: true story

Post by pigsteak » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:42 am

love it!
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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