"Closed Project" crack???

Post by **Astroman** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:41 am

I saw the new guidebook yesterday and it looks really nice. The pictures were especially good. Looks like Ray did a great job.

But I couldn't help but notice that "All That Glitters" at the Gallery is listed as a "Closed Project." Are you guys serious? Since when has a crack ever been a closed project? I'm guessing this is because there's a bolt at the bottom and a bolted anchor but c'mon... You'd get laughed out of the Valley (or anywhere for that matter) for trying to "close" an unsent splitter crack...

Post by **Wes** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:44 am

Maybe it is just more of a sign of goodwill and respect? If you know someone that cleaned and added the hardware, and they were working the route, would you want to give them the chance to do it? Or is it just "all about me and my needs to climb this route"?

Post by **Horatio Felacio** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:31 am

maybe the argument for "how much time should a person have for an f.a. attempt" be used in this case? i'm with astroman though...you can't claim a crack.

Post by **pawilkes** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:32 am

Astroman, just in case your weren't aware, this is the Red, not the Valley. Fuck the Valley, they have they're rules and code of ethics and we do to. Just because Yosemite is one of the best climbing areas in the world doesn't mean that their style of climbing with their etics apply to every other area in the country. So pull your head out of your ass

Post by **Wes** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:41 am

Ho, I would totally agree if the crack toped out/ended on a big ledge with a tree, etc. But when you get into added hardware and stuff, I think giving the person who added the hardware the time to do the route is the right thing to do. I mean, that crack was sitting there for years and years before someone went out there, found it, added anchors and cleaned it. If you all want to FA cracks, there are still plenty out there, maybe just spend a few days bushwacking around looking. Then put in the work to clean and equip them.

Post by **rockman** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:45 am

Just to Clarify.....

It is not a Closed Project; It is my project;
It has been done on TR, so go ahead debate on the FA.

BTW, you can see more pictures on http://rrgcc.org/gallery.php as well as casselphotography.com if so so choose.

More info:
It has on piece of gear (not fixed, just for working) please leave it.
Bolt is optional.
Rating "subjective"

If you feel you 'need' to get on this route, please PM me, I need a belayer and beta.

Rockman

Post by **Ultra** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:01 am

So if you climbed it on TR then, that is a First Ascent. Not a free Ascent, mind you.But an ascent none the less.

Post by **Astroman** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:07 am

Thanks, Rockman, for the clarification. Beautiful pitch. Good luck.

And thanks to you too, pawilkes, for your constructive input to this debate. But, I bet you can't provide one crack climb, ever, in the history of crack climbing ANYWHERE, that was restricted as a "closed project."

Post by **Horatio Felacio** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:23 am

i don't think you can add anchors to a crack and claim it as a closed project. you're climbing the crack and using it for pro. the added anchors just happen to be there for convenience...if they weren't, you could leave some gear or top out. i just don't see the addition of anchors as being necessary to climb the route, as opposed to bolted sport routes.

pawilkes, this thread isn't about capris and sideways pony tails...i think you confused about "crack" ethics.

Post by **ninesixfour** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:31 am

Really what it comes down to is the length of time the equipper/person attempting the FA spends trying to do the route. At some point, if you are unable, unmotivated, or unwilling to climb the route then as common courtesy the route should be opened up to the public. Sometimes the pressure of having other stronger climbers ready to do the route motivates the equipper/attempter to get busy. In this situation it's been several years, no? This is also unique because the Red isn't exactly a hotbed of trad climbing where there are lots of people that would be able to climb the route easily. In another area, it probably would have been climbed long ago.
In any case, a TR ascent is not a FA. Especially when the difference between a lead placing all the gear and a TR ascent is so great. What if someone you were climbing with while working on the route had sent it on toprope? Is it their route now?
Anyway, good luck Rockman. I know you can climb it.

Post by **Paul3eb** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:43 am

ninesixfour wrote:In any case, a TR ascent is not a FA. Especially when the difference between a lead placing all the gear and a TR ascent is so great.

actually it is a first ascent.. first: well.. the first. ascent: to go up. so literally an fa is the first person to go up it, whether on tr, aid, gear, or solo. if you want to further clarify a ffa, fffa, or ffsa, go ahead.. it's a matter of semantics and ridiculousness.

Post by **ninesixfour** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:59 am

So Paul, when you're trying a route, after you send it on TR it's done and you move on? How about if you throw a rope down the route from the top and then jug back up it? Is that a first ascent too? Probably not. I think most would agree that leading a route is it's true FA.

Post by **Paul3eb** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:27 pm

actually it is an fa.

i'm not talking about what i consider a "true" fa cause i don't really care and no one really should: it's a subjective matter and people will always bitch and fuss about what's a "true" fa. it's called a first ascent so call it what it is if you're going to fuss about what's "true". a first ascent is a first ascent, there is no "grey area" there. it's as if there's a bunch of apples and one's really bruised: it's an apple but it might not be the best.. but that's a matter of subjective descisions. but regardless of whether you think it's "really" an apple, it still is.

Post by **Horatio Felacio** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:35 pm

you guys are gay.

Post by **Ultra** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:45 pm

Yes we are gay...but. The simple fact of the matter. A Fa is a Fa. Regardless of "style". Its like "Nazi Bitch Crack" If I am not mistaken. Matt, You got the First free ascent BUT whatshisnuts got the FIRST ASCENT Back in the day....so are you going to take his FA (WHICH WAS AN AID ASCENT)away from him because you did it in a different style. I think not......