The Trad Climbers Inequality

Placing a cam? Slotting a nut? Slinging a tree?
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Andrew
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Post by Andrew » Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:50 pm

^Truth x 100000000000
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Post by RRO » Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:56 pm

SCIN wrote:I kind of modeled my point system in ways that i could be ahead and show my dominance on all. It seemed to make sense at the time. Sorry y'all, you're stuck with it, I am RAY ELLINGTON the dreamy guidebook author. No way in hell am I going to go back, recode, and recalculate all of the scores. Plus what I say is the law of the land.

I don't think most people are really upset that lines under 5.8 aren't counted, those people should not be climbing and should stay at Walmart. If they were counted it would just stroke their ego and bring them to crags me and my sponsored homies are chillin at. In my opinion the tougher trad lines at the Red don't count unless they were done by 52TR and myself. So everything other than that should actually deduct points.

I think trad lines just feel more difficult sometimes because you're relying on friction, opposition, and squeezing more than pulling, thats why I only climb SPORT now. Pulling is just instinctual and really shows of my lats and allows me to be back in time for American Idol and Survivor. Pushing and squeezing is more physical feeling and makes my old ass hemroids hurt. Plus, onsiting is tougher when the gear placements are tough and in the end Im skeered.
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Post by anticlmber » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:58 pm

double nice
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SCIN
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Post by SCIN » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:02 pm

Triple nice.
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Post by anticlmber » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:13 pm

i agree with OW about lack of technique equals the difficulty felt on gear. roadside was 5.10 before i knew how to jam. i think that the bolt grades aren't consistent though. the 7s, 8,s 9, all have tougher moves, (with proper technique) then a bolted route of the same grade.

also, the extra weight of the gear adds a little more to the experience. draws are all light and shit and that helps.
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Post by 512OW » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:48 pm

anticlmber wrote:the 7s, 8,s 9, all have tougher moves, (with proper technique) then a bolted route of the same grade.
Maybe (though I still disagree), but the 7, 8, and 9 trad routes all have about twice as many no hands rests.

Lets take a popular call for "biggest sandbag" in the Red.... The Beeneling.

5.9+, yet all the whiners call it at least 10b.

I got a no hands stance nearly EVERY move.

Let me see anybody get a no hands stance nearly every move of Sunshine or Moonbeam....


Not to mention, even an "ok" handjam or fingerlock, at anything less than perfectly vertical, is like having an incut jug. Every 9 and under trad route in the Red is a jug haul.
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Post by charlie » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:43 pm

Took me 3 times to do Return of Geoff Beene. I've warmed up on Jack In the Pulpit for years.

Maybe my trad skills are just so much more deficient than my sport skills, but I like to think I suck sufficiently in both areas (and clearly w/ the bolders). The grades are different, the technique is different, the climbing is different, and life is tough all over.

Pretending they are the same is ridiculous, almost as absurd as discussing the "inequality" of the point system around here.

Judges rule.......

.....5 pages on this conversation is pretty damn lame and I am so bummed I'm not waking up in the desert tomorrow.

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Post by Wes » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:52 pm

And yet you spent the time you could be posting photo of IC to respond. Disturbing, really...
charlie wrote:Took me 3 times to do Return of Geoff Beene. I've warmed up on Jack In the Pulpit for years.

Maybe my trad skills are just so much more deficient than my sport skills, but I like to think I suck sufficiently in both areas (and clearly w/ the bolders). The grades are different, the technique is different, the climbing is different, and life is tough all over.

Pretending they are the same is ridiculous, almost as absurd as discussing the "inequality" of the point system around here.

Judges rule.......

.....5 pages on this conversation is pretty damn lame and I am so bummed I'm not waking up in the desert tomorrow.
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Post by 512OW » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:22 pm

charlie wrote:Took me 3 times to do Return of Geoff Beene. I've warmed up on Jack In the Pulpit for years.
Well duh... you don't "train" on cracks.

I can warm up on Geoff just as easy as I can on Jack. In fact, Geoff has 2 no hands rests... making it essentially three 20 foot 10b routes. And theres only really one move....
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Post by anticlmber » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:38 pm

512OW wrote:
Well duh... you don't "train" on cracks.

I can warm up on Geoff just as easy as I can on Jack. ..[/quote]

there's no cracks you do for "fitness"??

nice subtle spray.
i can warm up on mercy better than aquaduct. doesn't make one easier or mean i have technique. i have found that there are some fluffy climbs of all types(and the bags as well) but some stuff suites us better than others. styles, holds, difficulty is all subjective to each person. but OW i think you are just trying to be nice and not call most of us pus(*&s. thanks.

and really, CHUCK, pics.

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Post by 512OW » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:15 pm

anticlmber wrote: there's no cracks you do for "fitness"??

nice subtle spray.
Sure, I spent years training exclusively on cracks, running lap after lap on all your least favorite sizes, and never going to the climbing gym. However, I'm pretty sure that Charlie never did. Just a guess, but a safe one.

Warming up on 10d is spray??? Maybe in 1968.
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Post by absolutsugarsmurf » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:16 am

I don't really care about the points. I started this thread from a casual observation, not from a desire to see my "red river climbing" point total go up. I like the spray list more for the easy ability to keep track of what climbs I've been on. Although I did go sport climbing on Saturday, so I may be talking out my ass.

One argument I can't let go is that the proper technique makes climbing different disciplines equally challenging for the same grade. At the extreme case, this can be taken to said: climbng a 5.10a offwidth, with the proper technique, is as easy as climbing a 5.10a pocketed sport jug line.

I'm going to be a douch bag and quote Royal Robbins Rockcraft:

Of all the free climbing techniques, jamming is the most difficult to learn; first because it is strenuous and more important because it is totally foreign to our experience. Cling holds are unerstandable. Here is something one can grab. But jamming must be deliberately learned and fostered.

Part of my definition of what makes something difficult or not is how much effort must be spent in order to learn how to do it. SCIN, 512OW, Royal Robbins and other have said that the pulling motions on jugs are more natural movements than that required on most trad climbs. Since you have to spend more time learning and perfecting jamming movements (and chimney techniques), they are therefore more difficult. Once you have mastered them thay may feel as easy. But those of you claiming equality for sport and trad lines are ignoring the difficulty of developing those skills. Marmalade may be 5.9, but only to someone who has put in significant effort in learning the appropriate methods for climbing a fist to fist stack crack. Almost anyone fit can get up a 5.9 sport on their first day of climbing due to the natural motion of the pulling. The significant effort of learning techniques outside of your normal experience is a major part what makes trad climbing more difficult.

I've ben an engineering student for eight years now and am about to finish my PhD dissertation. If I look back to the material I learned as a junior, such as partial differential equations, thermodynamics, signals and systems, etc, I find much of the material to be "easy" due to my experience. But only because I went through the extremeley "difficult" process of learning it in the first place. It was hard as hell the first time through. You can't discount the experience. Tell someone in calc 2 that it's easy because you've completed calc 5. Anyone would say you're an asshole. 5.12 climbers (of any discipline) saying a 5.9 is easy are essentially doing the same thing.

512OW, if you can send the inhibitor in tennis shoes and still think it is easy, maybe you wouldn't mind teaching me to do the same. I'm climb about 5.9 trad onsite, but am really weak on wide technique and thin technique. I've found breaking into the ten range difficult. So far I've taught myself, but could obviously use some help. Usual offers of beers, pizza, belay bitch, apply. Unfortunately I am not a cute 22 year old girl.

Andrew
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Post by Andrew » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:41 am

22 thats too old.

I know people who can crack climb all day and can't climb sport worth crap.
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Post by charlie » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:16 am

I shot with Blake's camera most all week so you'll have to talk to him about pics.

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Post by JR » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:51 am

absolutsugarsmurf wrote:
I think a sport line is more "defined" than a trad line .... I personally agree, that a crack is a more clear line than a sport climb.

I do trust bolts. I'd rather fall on a bolt.......... stupid as that may be.


This could be fixed be re-assesing the route grades by today's extended YDS............. I am not advocating that happen though.
Not only do I not agree with many of your insights. You do not seem to agree with the logic.

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