The Trad Climbers Inequality

Placing a cam? Slotting a nut? Slinging a tree?
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JR
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Post by JR » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:37 am

absolutsugarsmurf wrote:

One argument I can't let go is that the proper technique makes climbing different disciplines equally challenging for the same grade. At the extreme case, this can be taken to said: climbng a 5.10a offwidth, with the proper technique, is as easy as climbing a 5.10a pocketed sport jug line.
You hit it on the head. This is exactly the point of the grading system. Have you notice? No where on earth is there a different grading system for a safe sport route compared to a safe offwidth? It is because they are very much comparable. Do these grades feel the same to me? No. I will be the first person to say a 5.12 offwidth is next to imposible for me. I can climb any 5.12 sport route any day of the week. Why? Because that is all I train on. I have been pulling on holds 4 days a week for a long time. Just because I can't do it doesn't make it harder than it really is. A 5.12 is a 5.12.

I think Royal Robbins is right. Climbing must be deliberately "learned and fostered".

As to your arguement that it takes longer to learn. Sure, for me it took longer to learn. So what? Think of it like a trick. The point of a trick is for it to look a certain way. Another point of the trick is that everyone doesn't know how it is performed. Is the trick "hard" to perform? Maybe, maybe not. Once you figure out how it is performed you are on the road to mastering that trick. Once you have mastered the trick or say 5.8 handjaming then you can tell how hard it is.


absolutsugarsmurf wrote:
I've ben an engineering student for eight years now and am about to finish my PhD dissertation. If I look back to the material I learned as a junior, such as partial differential equations, thermodynamics, signals and systems, etc, I find much of the material to be "easy" due to my experience. But only because I went through the extremeley "difficult" process of learning it in the first place. It was hard as hell the first time through. You can't discount the experience. Tell someone in calc 2 that it's easy because you've completed calc 5. Anyone would say you're an asshole. 5.12 climbers (of any discipline) saying a 5.9 is easy are essentially doing the same thing.


Beautiful. Finally. Here it is. You get it.

Is Calc 2 still Calc 2?

In other words is 5.10 still 5.10 regardless if it is trad or sport? You bet your ass.

kidney_dave
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Post by kidney_dave » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:46 am

the benefit of placing your own gear, as was pointed out to be the other day by a couple of the more accomplished traddies in the red, after relating the story of my first whipper on to gear *ahem* yasmeen *ahem* and *ahem* OW, is as follows....
you know exactly where your gear has been, who has placed it (you), how many whips it has had on it, how it is placed, it has NEVER endured the freeze/thaw cycles that all the bolts have to go through, and they dont hang out in the sun/wind/rain all day, so what is there to be more sketched about?
i am not the most experienced trad climber, but i have done enough to know that a bomber C3 or C4 #3 is as good as a bolt...you can pull a truck motor off of those cams...
all of this makes absolute sense in my mind....
the only diffrence between sport and trad is your own ability to navigate the rock...climbing is climbing...

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SCIN
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Post by SCIN » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:01 am

That name "kidney dave" freaks me out.
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Post by endercore » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:08 am

whoa hold up a minute guys... if we are all being reasonable and coming an agreement then what are we going to bitch aimlessly on the internet about?

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Post by kidney_dave » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:16 am

sorry to freak you out, but i have a chronic kidney disease, and JR for some reason was getting confused by my old name, so i made it a little more conspicuous so as to not cause any confusion as to which dave I am...i am kidney dave, or KB to the people who know me (stands for kidney boy)

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Post by ahab » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:55 am

absolutsugarsmurf wrote:Once you have mastered the trick or say 5.8 handjaming then you can tell how hard it is.
disclosure: i don't know shit about trad.

smurfy: after last weekend, i could not agree more. i got on "into the purple valley" ( 5.8 ) and almost blew it on the jam section in the middle. i got down thinkin', "no fuckin' way this is 5.8!!". after contemplating once my heart rate was back to normal, i realized that it probably WAS a 5.8 line and would have felt as such if i had any hand jam skills whatsoever.
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Post by JRTrash » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:34 am

SCIN wrote:That name "kidney dave" freaks me out.
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Post by kidney_dave » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:35 am

and morgan, no...i am not a trad god...but the ZERO trad routes you have been on pale in comparison to the 25 or so that i have ticked off already...so at least i have a base of reference for my comments...strength is not always the answer...
next time you wanna be a douche bag do it with more panache and better information....

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Post by krampus » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:07 pm

would you guys quit writing anthems. Sum up your post into a witty smart ass remark and be done with it. I am totally lost on this thread.
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Post by Horatio Felacio » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:18 pm

fuck you cracker.
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Post by charlie » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:24 pm

Spray is lame, whining about how unjust the mechanism that enables you to spray is even lamer.

Trad climbing is different than sport climbing, but not better/worser/harder/weirder.

JR and OW should be discounted from all conversations related to average climbing because even though they are hobbits, they train a ton and are way too strong to understand the challenges of mere mortals.

Blake has all the pics from Indian Creek on his SLR.

Ratings should be limited purely to how many stars they have, and no more than 3 total.

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Post by 512OW » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:38 pm

Amen Charlie. I feel ya, but I'm 5'8" and a half... thats at least a half inch over hobbit status. :)

Smurf... I have a few more bolted lines left at Sky Bridge. I'd be happy to meet you up there one day and give the Inhibitor dissertation and some technique pointers.

Traddies make the same mistake that gymmies make... once they can "do" something, they think they can really do it. Gymmies have 25 or 40 feet worth of endurance, and think they can "really" climb 5.12, and traddies think that because they can do a hand jam... they "know" how to hand jam.

Jams, locks, stacks, etc... are exactly like holds. With practice, you'll get more and more comfortable and be able to rest on worse and worse jams. Practice them, and you'll understand. 5.10 cracks will all of a sudden be one rest stance after another.

As far as Royal Robbins goes...... gimme a break. They were doing 5.9 slabs. Those techniques are trivial compared to todays sport climbing.
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Post by ynot » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:42 pm

That name freaks me out.
Great arguments people. keep it up!
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Post by flip » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:05 pm

Can I come to your Inhibitor dissertation?

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Post by 512OW » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:07 pm

Yes. Bring your pretty wife.

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