Military Wall - Closed Routes

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by KD » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:57 pm

I thought I saw it in the online guidebook and in the last edition of the paper one

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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by KD » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:59 pm

K I just looked again and saw it open - my bad

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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by pigsteak » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:04 pm

I have to agree with Lurk on this one..I am old enough to remember all this stuff open, and the supposed hardening for a dig, then talk of a concrete pad, then closure, then hopefully climbers will forget about it, now acceptance that it is closed.

It is getting a bit old to have all these areas closed, and everyone preaching "patience", and then saying stuff is happening behind the scenes, then years and years go by and the same tired line is thrown out to keep the climbers from frothing at the mouth.

To me, an honest answer of 'X,Y, and Z will probably never be open for climbing again" is the proper answer for much of these issues. Then go a strip the routes and never print them in a guide again.
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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by charlie » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:22 am

pigsteak wrote:.....

It is getting a bit old to have all these areas closed, and everyone preaching "patience", and then saying stuff is happening behind the scenes, then years and years go by and the same tired line is thrown out to keep the climbers from frothing at the mouth.

To me, an honest answer of 'X,Y, and Z will probably never be open for climbing again" is the proper answer for much of these issues. Then go a strip the routes and never print them in a guide again.
The answer is....."start going to meetings and help the very few people that are involved lobby the USFS to get them open."

Bureaucracy is not the most efficient of mechanisms and you've heard that thing about squeaky wheels, right?

Otherwise.....fuck off with your complaints about it not happening fast enough for you.

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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by toad857 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:41 pm

charlie wrote:The answer is....."start going to meetings and help the very few people that are involved lobby the USFS to get them open."

Bureaucracy is not the most efficient of mechanisms and you've heard that thing about squeaky wheels, right?

Otherwise.....fuck off with your complaints about it not happening fast enough for you.

+1

Seriously...

step 1) take a trip to HUECO
step 2) realize how god damn LUCKY we are at the red
step 3) climb one of the other few thousand routes at your disposal

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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by Andrew » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:48 pm

Charlie, I love you to death, but your post kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I am going to use your post as an example of an annoying trend I have been seeing lately.

It has been getting increasingly annoying when people in a position of authority in the climbing community continually complain, and or become verbally hostile at other climbers for things that come with the territory. RRGCC officials should be very well aware, when they take the difficult and underappreciated job, that they will be doing the majority of the work in the community. They will be doing most of the organizing, lobbying, fundraising, trailbuilding, and etc. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't get help, or ask the community for help, but cussing at people for something that is a part of the job is annoying. Could you imagine if a football player was constantly complaining about getting hit, or an accountant constantly complaining about doing math. Publicly displaying your frustration, though warranted, by verbally attacking the community is not going to help your cause.

Certain things just come with the territory, either suck it up, or do something positive to make it better. We all know the masses will complain and ask for something for nothing, but I expect better from people in a position of authority, even if it is a voluntary position.
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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by pigsteak » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:57 pm

there ya have it...diplomacy at it's finest.

and charlie, since I assume this was directed at me, I'll direct my question back to you? Who said I was worried about it happening "fast enough"? I personally could not care less if those climbs ever got re-opened. So I am not "whining" about their closure. You need a break since you seem overly sensitive these days. My point was that we need to keep the routes out of books (like we do oil crack, etc) or chop them. We indeed do have thousands of other lines to climb..why not get rid of these few closed lines?

And Toad, been the Hueco six times...great place, even with the restrictions. I was there before the restrictions too, and climbers as a user group were loving it to death.
We are very fortunate..that point is not lost on me. at all.
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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by charlie » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:28 pm

Here's the best part about it. I'm no longer president, I don't have to watch my mouth. :D

I can tell anyone I want to fuck off as much as I want and I can mean every word of it.

The years of justifying my actions to everyone with an opinion and keeping my mouth shut have festered long enough. I am now speaking as a peer, not as an authority figure.

You may want to get used to it. :wink:

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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by Andrew » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:52 pm

Sorry Charlie, I thought you were president. Feel free to complain away, you are one of the masses now.
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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by rjackson » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:01 pm

Wow...
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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by charlie » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:40 pm

Heh. I just think it's funny. The new Charlie is now the old Charlie and I know at least I missed him.

Batten down the hatches kids. I may even start climbing again.

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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by KD » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:39 pm

awesome! so that you are not one of "them" anymore you can be one of us. Let's get together saturday and sneak up to the ..... :) The U*FS or ******** oil ** will never know. lol

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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by merrick » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:08 pm

Charlie is BACK!!!!!

Unfortunately I think I agree with piggie on the fact that the whole hardening idea was a scam on the bureaucrats part, trying to beat us with a war of attrition. And they essentially won. All I have to say is thank you to the RRGCC and the Access Fund for the PMRP!!!
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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by ynot » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:29 pm

piggy is on to something here. why not chop them them and delete them? They are already fenced and off limits. remove the temptation. It would suck for the FA but it already does.
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Re: Military Wall - Closed Routes

Post by the lurkist » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:57 am

charlie is right, albeit in crudely articulated way.
The FS is the pentultimate bureaucracy . Low level career federal employees who do a good job at managing the district, but really don't want to draw any scrutiny from any sea change/ decision making without checkng with everyone involved first. In the case of Military Wall closures, the cultural artifacts issue was raised by the District Archeologist back when this issue first came up. This issue was fully vetted and disspelled by the subcontractor who the RRGCC and Access fund funded to perform the level 2 eval of the site. There were no significant cultural artifacts found at this site. To quote one of the anthropologists who worked on the job, "You could stick a shovel in the ground in the Geologic area and come up with more meaningful artifacts than what was found under Thirsting Skull."
The other issue and the one that has made the FS reticent (read scared) to transgress is a Native American advocacy group that felt this area represented a significant native american site and wanted the closure to persist indefinitely. The FS is loath to get into a firefight with anyone, much less a group of zealots who will bring law suit.
The reality is ( and the reason I call bullshit on this) is that while one group can dictate terms to the FS through intimidation, the group that has one of the best cooperative working relationships with the FS of any user group on any district in the country is marginalized and taken advantage of to avoid the FS having to make the right decision.
Now, I wouldn't have a problem with this closure if it served a true and real purpose. If it did protect cultural resources, fine. If there was something in the ground that needed study at a distant time in the future when money and technology allowed, I am more than willing to sacrifice an entire cliff. You need look no further than the Hominy Hole to see how quickly the climbing community gets behind the greater good and subordinates itself to bigger issues than rock climbing.
But in this case, the FS is unwilling to do the right thing out of bureacratic intransigence and lack of will.
That my friends is the definition of bullshit.
Last edited by the lurkist on Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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