Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by climb2core » Tue May 31, 2011 11:09 pm

krampus wrote:A popular route is a popular route, there is always the possibility of a line. If you were at the solarium, you could have walk ten feet in either direction and not waited in line :roll: or did those not have fixed gear? I refuse to wait in lines at the red, mainly because here are thousands of routs at the red, no one bitches about the crowds and heat more than me, but honestly I kinda liked the variety I experience from being forced by the hoards to climb the obscure. If I went to the solarium on any day outside of februrary, I might hope for SBF but I know good and darn well that I'll likely be settling for "so long mr. petey" or "urban voodoo", which still have three stars mind you.
The "line" was one guy that was on the route. I had been looking forward to jumping on that route and didn't expect to have to wait too long considering I was next up. I have already sent everything else on the wall except the 13. (lie, but sounds cool) I was actually surprised how empty the Solarium was on a holiday week end. The more I think about it, it is not the perma's that are the issue... it is the ethics and general lack of courtesy I seem to encounter more and more. I mean, wtf is the point in resting for 15 min on a ledge when you are not on a RP attempt and can only go bolt to bolt at best. I can deal with hang dogging, I have done it too. But I also am aware of people waiting and how much progress I am making.

Oh, and for the record cramps, I actually have no problems with hanging or cleaning my own draws.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by fray21 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:09 am

C2C,
Why are you more entitled that any other climber? How many times have you hung all over a route trying to figure out moves? You need to relax and wait your turn or get on another line.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by Andrew » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:11 am

climb2core wrote: I have already sent everything else on the wall except the 13. (lie, but sounds cool)
Could be worse. You could be like me and have already climbed every route on the wall. Now I have nothing to climb there... so at least you have something to climb.
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by SCIN » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:21 am

I've gotten my rope stuck on SBF and have seen others get their stuck. I even rescued someone's rope for them. If there's any route in the Red that needs permas it's SBF.

There's nothing "strong" or "weak" about project draws on a route. If someone is too "weak" to hang their own draws they can easily just stick clip them up. Just because it feels impossible to hang draws on a line doesn't mean you shouldn't be on it. It just means you haven't found the clipping stance, pinch, micro-crimp, thumb smear, etc yet.

TradMike, If you've never had to grab the stick clip to hang a draw or place a cam (I've done that) then it means you aren't pushing yourself hard enough. When you choose to take on a line that pushes you to the max you will barely be able to hang onto some holds or fingerlocks long enough to shove in pro or clip a draw. Plenty of hard trad lines were sent with some pre-placed pieces due to the difficulty of the placement. Do you ever watch climbing videos? Do you ever see Ondra hanging his draws when he sends 5.15?

Popular routes will always have pre-hung draws because people leave behind project draws. All of the hard lines I've sent had either someone else's draws or my own draws pre-hung when I did them. The arguments against perm-draws shouldn't involve comments about being "too weak to hang them" because pre-hanging will happen regardless on tough lines.
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by dustonian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:28 am

TradMike is a bad ass!! He's ben crushing 10a/b onsight for over 20 years!!! Don't f--- with him SCIN, he's got mad trad 'tude, etc etc etc. YAAAAAAAAWWWNNN.....someone's been reading back issues of Alpinist on the shitter a little too much IMO.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by climb2core » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:44 am

fray21 wrote:C2C,
Why are you more entitled that any other climber? How many times have you hung all over a route trying to figure out moves? You need to relax and wait your turn or get on another line.
fray, you obviously don't know me or even read my posts. I have no more entitlement to that route or any route. Yes, I have hung all over routes... but I will restate what I just said. I am aware that we share the routes and crags and always try to respect other peoples time and access as well. So, lets say I was working a route that was clearly over my ability and someone else comes up and expresses that they would like to jump on the line as well. I would try the crux a few more times and if I couldn't do it I would try to pull through it, and try to work it more on my next burn. Then I would NOT rest for 15 min the ledge.

Andrew, yeah it would suck to have climbed that much and be that strong. So sorry man...

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by Rocky Top » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:51 am

climb2core wrote:
krampus wrote:A popular route is a popular route, there is always the possibility of a line. If you were at the solarium, you could have walk ten feet in either direction and not waited in line :roll: or did those not have fixed gear? I refuse to wait in lines at the red, mainly because here are thousands of routs at the red, no one bitches about the crowds and heat more than me, but honestly I kinda liked the variety I experience from being forced by the hoards to climb the obscure. If I went to the solarium on any day outside of februrary, I might hope for SBF but I know good and darn well that I'll likely be settling for "so long mr. petey" or "urban voodoo", which still have three stars mind you.
The "line" was one guy that was on the route. I had been looking forward to jumping on that route and didn't expect to have to wait too long considering I was next up. I have already sent everything else on the wall except the 13. (lie, but sounds cool) I was actually surprised how empty the Solarium was on a holiday week end. The more I think about it, it is not the perma's that are the issue... it is the ethics and general lack of courtesy I seem to encounter more and more. I mean, wtf is the point in resting for 15 min on a ledge when you are not on a RP attempt and can only go bolt to bolt at best. I can deal with hang dogging, I have done it too. But I also am aware of people waiting and how much progress I am making.

Oh, and for the record cramps, I actually have no problems with hanging or cleaning my own draws.
I'm with krampus on this one; if it's a small local crag and it was a project you've been itching for, I guess I could see it more, but with the 100's of 12a/bs nearby you can always get some game. iirc there's like 5.12s flanking SBF

Besides, what you described is, in my wife's words "inimitable RRG style"...ethics, shmetics, leave that to trad dads like myself! Did you ask the guy how long he was going to be? Maybe he was so gripped up the hole that he didn't even notice anything around...I've been there numerous times, just last week for instance.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by dustonian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:52 am

So basically, permadraws don't suck, people do? Sounds like an etiquette problem to me, not a rigging issue. Now you've gone & got RadMike all riled up over a red herring, basically permadraws wisely installed at the Webers request to keep sharp jingus pseudo-fixed aluminum draws off a very popular route.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by climb2core » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:59 am

He was aware that I wanted to jump on the line. We chatted while he sat on the ledge 25 ft up. I am not saying the guy was a complete asshole, he wasn't. Really, the worse part was the 15-20 min "rest" on the ledge followed by climbing 3 feet, struggling to make the clip and then lowering... Also, the cheering crowd telling me that he is gonna stay up there "all day" if he has to. I love push my fellow climbers probably more than the next guy, but will tell my buddy, hey why don't you rest and then give it another burn if he is failing to progress and people are waiting.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by Brentucky » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:41 am

I was feeling strong and hung my own draws on "Yu Stin Ki Pu" this weekend, and without a stick clip! Pansies!
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by TradMike » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:11 am

SCIN wrote:I've gotten my rope stuck on SBF and have seen others get their stuck. I even rescued someone's rope for them. If there's any route in the Red that needs permas it's SBF.

There's nothing "strong" or "weak" about project draws on a route. If someone is too "weak" to hang their own draws they can easily just stick clip them up. Just because it feels impossible to hang draws on a line doesn't mean you shouldn't be on it. It just means you haven't found the clipping stance, pinch, micro-crimp, thumb smear, etc yet.

TradMike, If you've never had to grab the stick clip to hang a draw or place a cam (I've done that) then it means you aren't pushing yourself hard enough. When you choose to take on a line that pushes you to the max you will barely be able to hang onto some holds or fingerlocks long enough to shove in pro or clip a draw. Plenty of hard trad lines were sent with some pre-placed pieces due to the difficulty of the placement. Do you ever watch climbing videos? Do you ever see Ondra hanging his draws when he sends 5.15?

Popular routes will always have pre-hung draws because people leave behind project draws. All of the hard lines I've sent had either someone else's draws or my own draws pre-hung when I did them. The arguments against perm-draws shouldn't involve comments about being "too weak to hang them" because pre-hanging will happen regardless on tough lines.
You are right, I probably shouldn't use the term too weak. I know it is everything but. I have pre-placed gear, but I also take it with me when I leave that day. I am not saying you shouldn't climb something if you can't hang the draws on lead. I have nothing against working a route, hang dogging up a route or pre-placing gear. I just think it is an eyesore that doesn't make climbers look good in the eyes of non-climbers when the stuff is left there on public land. When I say weak, I mean too lazy to go to the effort to place the gear and take it down when you leave. The reason I am playing devils advocate and jabbing is that I have heard rangers commenting on the fixed mank. It's going to add to the ammunition to close areas.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by dustonian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:17 am

I agree on that. The draws need to come down from Table, Twinkie, Military, etc.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by Jeff » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:13 am

+1

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by fray21 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:22 pm

I would be curious to have C2C or Dustonian outline appropriate climbing etiquette for this situation.

If I'm working a route and another climber walks up to the cliff and informs me that he is ready for his red point burn I'm not going to lower off the route and let him/her go. I would politely inform the climber that this is a working burn and it might be 30 minutes. I don't feel the difficulty of the route or my current redpoint level play into the etiquette for this situation. I was on the route first and should not feel pressured to get off the route for someone else.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by dustonian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:29 pm

I don't know, I lack the patience for working routes into the ground so it's hard to say. I personally don't mind if someone hangs on a route all day as there are at least 3000 routes in the Red and about half of them are worth climbing once or twice. Maybe, say, an hour for a "beta run" (is that the right jargon?) as the upper limit of decency?

One thing I can't stand though is group gangbang toprope sessions on popular warmups that won't share the love with others... but that's another issue entirely.

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