Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by pigsteak » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:40 pm

hey SCIN, those are my draws on Hell hounds..please remove them after you send. thank you.
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by climb2core » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:43 pm

fray21 wrote:I would be curious to have C2C or Dustonian outline appropriate climbing etiquette for this situation.

If I'm working a route and another climber walks up to the cliff and informs me that he is ready for his red point burn I'm not going to lower off the route and let him/her go. I would politely inform the climber that this is a working burn and it might be 30 minutes. I don't feel the difficulty of the route or my current redpoint level play into the etiquette for this situation. I was on the route first and should not feel pressured to get off the route for someone else.
First, I didn't inform him "I am ready". I asked the group how many more people were in line after him and that was it.

LOL, a working burn? Do you often sit on a ledge for 15-20 minutes on your working burns? How is that working a route?... cause I think he had the sit on your ass and do nothing mastered after the first couple of minutes... After that, do you get pumped out climbing 3 feet of jugs? To me that is not a working burn. I don't believe he felt pressured. I told him to have fun and congratulated him when he gained the ledge. I don't know, maybe there is a formuala you can use... vertical feet climbed/time to determine when your hang dogging working session is really just becoming a lesson in how to sit on a rope (or ledge in this case) In general, I think it is ridiculous to spend more than 20-30 minutes working a route if people are waiting, including my friends that I am climbing with. I don't, ever.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by pigsteak » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:47 pm

then you c2c will never be a real sport climber, because real climbers are selfish and self absorbed..it is about me brah...my burn, my draws, my spray, my beta..get with the program, or find some lesser activity like tiddly winks or trad.
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by lena_chita » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:31 pm

climb2core wrote:Do you often sit on a ledge for 15-20 minutes on your working burns? How is that working a route?... cause I think he had the sit on your ass and do nothing mastered after the first couple of minutes... After that, do you get pumped out climbing 3 feet of jugs? To me that is not a working burn. I don't believe he felt pressured. I told him to have fun and congratulated him when he gained the ledge. I don't know, maybe there is a formuala you can use... vertical feet climbed/time to determine when your hang dogging working session is really just becoming a lesson in how to sit on a rope (or ledge in this case) In general, I think it is ridiculous to spend more than 20-30 minutes working a route if people are waiting, including my friends that I am climbing with. I don't, ever.

I have witnessed this sort of behavior in the Maddness cave at the 'lode, where, as everyone seems to agree, the perma-draws are a must.

Sure, they offer a low-commitment option, and I have taken advantage of it occasionally -- as, I am sure, others have.

But the things that annoyed you in this situation would not have been any different if the guy was stick-clipping his way up a route, without any draws, so perma-draws have nothing to do with it.

Just a week ago, we were at the New, at Kaymoor. A guy was climbing Low Voltage-- 5.10b. No perma-draws. When we walked in, he had just placed one piece of gear, and was in the process of placing another-- before the first bolt. It is a sport climb, and the start is definitely not the crux, but the first bolt is high, and I guess they didn't want to borrow a stick clip from another party. We said hello and asked if there were other people in line for the climb. Just his belayer... In no particular hurry, we settled down to wait. Then he hung on the first bolt. And the 3rd? And the 4th... and the 5th... Then the epic started. For unclear reason slings were added, draws extended, long slings and draws hanging from the same bolt... He kept trying the move, but the rock was wet. He aided up and hung another draw. And then tried some more. And again. and again. Eventually he gave up and came down, cleaning the draws on the way down, but leaving the top draw hanging. It took at least an hour... Fortunately for us, his belayer was not willing/able to lead, so we got a turn on the route and 15 min later the draw was presented back to the guy.

It just so happened that I was not in a mood to climb much that day, feeling tired after a good day of climbing the day before, and content to just belay and get a couple of pitches in, maybe. And my partner was equally chill and in no hurry. So sitting around, eating a snack and chatting with other people who kept walking in and getting in line for this climb, far from getting me irritated and annoyed, felt rather good and relaxing.

But I can see a situation where this would have been maddening... But then again, if I were in a hurry, I probably would have been looking for an alternative warm-up as soon as I saw that guy hang on the 1st draw.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by SCIN » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:10 pm

pigsteak wrote:hey SCIN, those are my draws on Hell hounds..please remove them after you send. thank you.
Those have been replaced with my sponsorship diamond runner/platinum biner draws. I left yours buried in the dirt at the base if you want them.
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by dustonian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:38 pm

I found those draws and fed them to TradMike's dog.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by pigsteak » Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:54 pm

SCIN wrote:
pigsteak wrote:hey SCIN, those are my draws on Hell hounds..please remove them after you send. thank you.
Those have been replaced with my sponsorship diamond runner/platinum biner draws. I left yours buried in the dirt at the base if you want them.
I expected better from you...truly.
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by vertical1 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:10 pm

climb2core wrote: In general, I think it is ridiculous to spend more than 20-30 minutes working a route if people are waiting, including my friends that I am climbing with. I don't, ever.

I also have to dissagree. I have spent 45 minutes on a route many times, and looking like I shouldn't be on it. Then promptly sent second go. Now, if the crag was fairly crowded (which you say it wasn't), I would be more inclined to "hurry" and let other people go. But if I know only one person is waiting, and most of the rest of the crag is open, then I will take my precious time to dial the moves, work the route to death. I do not consider that out of line. Now if someone asks how long I am going to be on it(which it sounds like you didn't do) then I would give them an honest estimate and stick to it as closely as possible.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by pigsteak » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:17 pm

vertical1 wrote:
climb2core wrote: In general, I think it is ridiculous to spend more than 20-30 minutes working a route if people are waiting, including my friends that I am climbing with. I don't, ever.

I also have to dissagree. I have spent 45 minutes on a route many times, and looking like I shouldn't be on it. Then promptly sent second go. Now, if the crag was fairly crowded (which you say it wasn't), I would be more inclined to "hurry" and let other people go. But if I know only one person is waiting, and most of the rest of the crag is open, then I will take my precious time to dial the moves, work the route to death. I do not consider that out of line. Now if someone asks how long I am going to be on it(which it sounds like you didn't do) then I would give them an honest estimate and stick to it as closely as possible.
all cool, as long as you count every hang on the rope as one go....so in your 'sesh", you actually sent it on, oh, perhaps your 34th go of the day...just be honest,that's all.
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by dustonian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:23 pm

Counting your "goes" on sport routes after blowing the flash or onsight attempt is WAY fruity. Seriously, unless you're climbing 15a no one gives a damn. Even then it's pretty damn boring.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by pigsteak » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:52 pm

dustonian wrote:Counting your "goes" on sport routes after blowing the flash or onsight attempt is WAY fruity. Seriously, unless you're climbing 15a no one gives a damn. Even then it's pretty damn boring.

so now we care at 15a? hmmm, always thought it was about personal limits. I love to keep track of how many goes it takes...gives me a hint on where my fitness is.
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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by dustonian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:53 pm

Sure, personal limits, pushing yourself, etc etc. That's why I think the onsight or flash is the only true metric... as you pointed out, everything else is dependent on how efficient one is at "working" a route and what they happen to consider an "attempt"... seems kinda squishy.

Plus I honestly don't care... but that's just me. Sure is nice to onsight something at your limit though!

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by vertical1 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:26 pm

Pigsteak.

Probably about 24th go, but second time to the chains. Figure I work every bolt section twice, and difficult sections three times. Wasn't trying to spray about "second go" just making a point about it appearing that someone is on a route above their limit, when in fact they might not be. Once I fall on an onsite or flash, I will work it to death before coming back to the ground, so can get it the next redpoint attempt if possible. Whether it is second, or 34th doesnt matter to me.

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Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by pigsteak » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:22 pm

man, you guys are no fun.....at least tell me I am full of crap or something.
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