Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Gaston? High Step? Drop Knee? Talk in here.
Post Reply
dustonian
BANNED
Posts: 3089
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:46 am
Location: Lex/Zoe

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by dustonian » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:31 pm

You're right about that, too.

vertical1
Poser
Poser
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:50 pm
Location: Slade

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by vertical1 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:34 pm

pigsteak wrote:man, you guys are no fun.....at least tell me I am full of crap or something.

I didn't want to hurt your feelings and have you put away your drill.

chriss
Parasite
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:02 am

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by chriss » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:55 pm

pigsteak wrote: all cool, as long as you count every hang on the rope as one go....so in your 'sesh", you actually sent it on, oh, perhaps your 34th go of the day...just be honest,that's all.
That is why I only count the number of times that I rope up.

vertical1
Poser
Poser
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:50 pm
Location: Slade

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by vertical1 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:59 pm

chriss wrote:
pigsteak wrote: all cool, as long as you count every hang on the rope as one go....so in your 'sesh", you actually sent it on, oh, perhaps your 34th go of the day...just be honest,that's all.
That is why I only count the number of times that I rope up.
Does that mean if I rope up, and don't untie, then I can send it first go?

chriss
Parasite
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:02 am

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by chriss » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:59 pm

fray21 wrote:If I'm working a route and another climber walks up to the cliff and informs me that he is ready for his red point burn I'm not going to lower off the route and let him/her go. I would politely inform the climber that this is a working burn and it might be 30 minutes. I don't feel the difficulty of the route or my current redpoint level play into the etiquette for this situation. I was on the route first and should not feel pressured to get off the route for someone else.
Agreed!

With so many other routes at the solarium and the arsenal, jump on another route. Then again, if you can't handle waiting for 30 minutes you may need to work on your patience.

chriss
Parasite
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:02 am

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by chriss » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:04 pm

vertical1 wrote:
chriss wrote:
pigsteak wrote: all cool, as long as you count every hang on the rope as one go....so in your 'sesh", you actually sent it on, oh, perhaps your 34th go of the day...just be honest,that's all.
That is why I only count the number of times that I rope up.
Does that mean if I rope up, and don't untie, then I can send it first go?
I am thinking in terms of a project. i.e. I sent on my 23rd rope up. But then again, you can call it whatever you want .... But, first go typically indicates a flash or onsite, so your may want to be more specific.

vertical1
Poser
Poser
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:50 pm
Location: Slade

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by vertical1 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:17 pm

I agree with your way of counting

User avatar
SCIN
BANNED
Posts: 4981
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2002 9:19 am
Location: Lexington, KY

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by SCIN » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:32 pm

dustonian wrote:Counting your "goes" on sport routes after blowing the flash or onsight attempt is WAY fruity. Seriously, unless you're climbing 15a no one gives a damn. Even then it's pretty damn boring.
Counting tries is kind of like comparing dick sizes with your friends. No matter how big you are there is always Jonah Falcon lurking in the background.
Yo Ray jack dynomite! Listen to my beat box! Bew ch ch pff BEW ch ch pfff! Sweet!

-Horatio

User avatar
pigsteak
The Crocodile Hunter
The Crocodile Hunter
Posts: 9684
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:49 pm
Location: Like Prince my name has now changed..please call me Piglovely.

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by pigsteak » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:49 pm

since I have never heard of jonah falcon, I'll assume he is not mini-me....
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

User avatar
der uber
Buff Biff the Sausage Monkey
Posts: 1344
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: en route

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by der uber » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:00 pm

SCIN wrote:I've gotten my rope stuck on SBF and have seen others get their stuck. I even rescued someone's rope for them. If there's any route in the Red that needs permas it's SBF.

There's nothing "strong" or "weak" about project draws on a route. If someone is too "weak" to hang their own draws they can easily just stick clip them up. Just because it feels impossible to hang draws on a line doesn't mean you shouldn't be on it. It just means you haven't found the clipping stance, pinch, micro-crimp, thumb smear, etc yet.

TradMike, If you've never had to grab the stick clip to hang a draw or place a cam (I've done that) then it means you aren't pushing yourself hard enough. When you choose to take on a line that pushes you to the max you will barely be able to hang onto some holds or fingerlocks long enough to shove in pro or clip a draw. Plenty of hard trad lines were sent with some pre-placed pieces due to the difficulty of the placement. Do you ever watch climbing videos? Do you ever see Ondra hanging his draws when he sends 5.15?

Popular routes will always have pre-hung draws because people leave behind project draws. All of the hard lines I've sent had either someone else's draws or my own draws pre-hung when I did them. The arguments against perm-draws shouldn't involve comments about being "too weak to hang them" because pre-hanging will happen regardless on tough lines.
Love it

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by climb2core » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:03 pm

chriss wrote:
fray21 wrote:If I'm working a route and another climber walks up to the cliff and informs me that he is ready for his red point burn I'm not going to lower off the route and let him/her go. I would politely inform the climber that this is a working burn and it might be 30 minutes. I don't feel the difficulty of the route or my current redpoint level play into the etiquette for this situation. I was on the route first and should not feel pressured to get off the route for someone else.
Agreed!

With so many other routes at the solarium and the arsenal, jump on another route. Then again, if you can't handle waiting for 30 minutes you may need to work on your patience.

I have no problems with waiting and it was my choice to do so. Going back to my op, this was only even an issue because of the permanent draws inviting people to climb above their grade. It would be the equivalent of me getting on hard 13 or a 14... What ever level you climb at, add 2 full grades, then go and do your "beta burn". I think the only thing you will really learn is you shouldn't be on that line. Again, this thread was more about that then the minor annoyance
I endured waiting for my lune of choice.

fray21
Gumby
Gumby
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:26 pm
Location: Grand Rapids

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by fray21 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:37 am

If the perma-draws were not hung and they got on the climb you would have been waiting a lot longer for them to finish and clean the route. You should be thankful the line had project draws.

I do understand your annoyance, we have all been there before when going to get on a project, but we have to remember that everyone has the privilege to climb any route. If I'm serious about a project I try to get out early to make sure I won't have a problem getting on it at somepoint in the day.

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by climb2core » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:52 am

fray21 wrote:If the perma-draws were not hung and they got on the climb you would have been waiting a lot longer for them to finish and clean the route. You should be thankful the line had project draws.

I do understand your annoyance, we have all been there before when going to get on a project, but we have to remember that everyone has the privilege to climb any route. If I'm serious about a project I try to get out early to make sure I won't have a problem getting on it at somepoint in the day.

Not really, cause I would have offered to switch out their gear. When I went to the Solarium I fully expected to wait, but I guess didn't expect to wait for the situation described... Which I am confident only occurred from the inviting permas on the route. Anyways, we may see it differently, which is fine too.

dustonian
BANNED
Posts: 3089
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:46 am
Location: Lex/Zoe

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by dustonian » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:16 am

So stop mewling on here about it... tell Rick Weber you don't approve of steel draws on the route and would like to go back to jingus aluminum razors because you had to wait too long for your sick 11d proj, brah. Damn those volunteers and permadraw donors for fulfilling a landowner request and trying to keep a very popular route safe!!

User avatar
climb2core
Loser
Loser
Posts: 2224
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: Perma Draws, Blessing or Curse?

Post by climb2core » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:29 am

dustonian wrote:So stop mewling on here about it... tell Rick Weber you don't approve of steel draws on the route and would like to go back to jingus aluminum razors because you had to wait too long for your sick 11d proj, brah. Damn those volunteers and permadraw donors for fulfilling a landowner request and trying to keep a very popular route safe!!
First, nice subtle spray!!! Second, you sound feebly like Pigsteak with your proj. brah comment. Third, when did I ever say they should be removed? Read my OP, brah. My point is, there are some drawbacks to perma's and I think their use is abused by some. And after thinking about it more, it is more about the people climbing through them than the perma's.

SBF a great, albeit tough 11d route, and I appreciate the permas on it when I climb it, and even more appreciate being able to climb in MV.

Post Reply