Deliberate Practice

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clif
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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by clif » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:01 pm

?? -good god. there is more than one book that substitutes 'deliberate practice' for 'training'?
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by chriss » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:06 pm

Shamis wrote: Sticking to a schedule, doing things that aren't 'fun' qualifies as training to me. I haven't checked out odub's site, but I will. However, I'm seeing massive gains right now, so I'm not likely to deviate until I start plateauing.

I know which days I'm going to climb, what I'm going to do on the non-climbing days, and I'm pushing myself harder. There is a big difference between 'training' for people who are already climbing at a high level, and 'training' for people who are just out of shape even for non-climbing stuff.

I'm also make sure I get at least 1, preferably 2 massive endurance days a week at the gym. This is somewhat dependent on finding a good belayer. But last night for instance I did 20 routes in 1.5 hours, with the average difficulty being about 5 letter grades under my current limit. this works me out nearly to the point of puking, and I have to really focus more and more on technique as I get near the end of the workout. Obviously just climbing for fun though.
If I scehdule time to bang my head against a wall three times a week ... I still can't call it training. I do understand what your are saying though. When I see the descriptive term 'lots and lots', or repeat a bunch of problems 2 grades below my limit I think of unorganized gym climbing. Basically, what I would call a fun climbing session. It's great that it works for you, but something I would have a hard time selling as a deliberate training session. My 2 cents.

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by pigsteak » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:41 pm

I am not even asking for a roadmap..I am trying to take the temperature of the local community...my guess is that between 5% and zero percent of climbers actually use deliberate training to improve.....chriss knows exactly what I am getting at..shamis workouts are just like mine, and are not deliberate practice. they are a reason to get back into shape for his trip. I am asking if anyone has taken it to the "next level", where they have seen results beyond what they first thought possible given their physical attributes.

I am having a hard time believing that deliberate practice can over ride innate attributes, and that anyone who did it right could climb 5.14.....but maybe I am wrong. doubtful, but possible.

and yes, clif, I am now on the third of 6 books on the subject.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.

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clif
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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by clif » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:01 pm

working for something is fine with me, this just sounds like the worst kind of fadism. not the point.

what's the baseline? i ask because the reason i started climbing is because at the inverted half pipe understructure of a bridge traverse i couldn't hold onto one jug and pull to the next the first day i was there. i didn't know that people could be that strong. i run laps on it today. i still suck. but at the same time it seems like that meets your criteria.

just because someone's got a 'new paradigm' to sell doesn't mean your plateau is any more vulnerable. dreams and desire. be the aesthetic. be beautiful.

why don't we have an emoticon with a tear in it's eye?
training is for people who care, i have a job.

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by tbwilsonky » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:19 pm

pigsteak wrote:I am having a hard time believing that deliberate practice can over ride innate attributes, and that anyone who did it right could climb 5.14.....but maybe I am wrong. doubtful, but possible.
i timed out on, and lost, a super-fucking awesome response. never. again. but to summarize:

climbing is complex. training is complex. try different stuff and see what works. i'm doing 9 paragraphs of training shit (power/strength/a-e endurance/gymnastics/rowing) and i expect to climb high-end 13 (maybe even more!) over the next couple of years despite my somewhat mediocre athletic potential.
haunted.

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by tbwilsonky » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:49 pm

but in the end it's always the same.... a process which leads to something you can't do.

so either enjoy the process or perish in the face of an eternal lack.
haunted.

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by krampus » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:44 am

accidental practice is more fun, and usually involves climbing
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by climb2core » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:09 am

C'mon Pigsteak, you already know the answer. Almost no one trains with a very specific, calculated plan. If you want to jump your game and climb like an elite climber it could be done. All it takes is dedication and time. However what many fail to realize is that is far easier to go from 5.11 to 5.12 than 5.12 to 5.13 and so on. So a gain from from 5.13a to b may be just as impressive as going from 5.11 to 5.12.

I would imagine gym's with an educated coach and competitive youth climbing team would come the closest to dedicated training. The problem is you need someone with experience at deliberate practice coaching to develop a program for you. People like Kris are very few and far between in the sport. And to be a good coach you have to have the knowledge AND the experience because as a coach you learn from your mistakes. I coached gymnastics at an elite level for a decade. I was much better at it in my last 2 years than in my first 2 years even though my knowledge of skills and technique didn't change.

Oh, and regarding innate ability... I bet that you could get 90% of a youth climbing team to climb 5.14 in their lifetime if they had the dedication to stick with it and the right person to guide them. A baseline of talent is always required, but ask coaches of any elite sport... it is normally not the most talented that rises to the top. It is the one wants it the most.

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Shamis » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:50 am

chriss wrote:If I scehdule time to bang my head against a wall three times a week ... I still can't call it training. I do understand what your are saying though. When I see the descriptive term 'lots and lots', or repeat a bunch of problems 2 grades below my limit I think of unorganized gym climbing. Basically, what I would call a fun climbing session. It's great that it works for you, but something I would have a hard time selling as a deliberate training session. My 2 cents.
So is it that I haven't quantified exactly how many of x I do in a given workout? I don't really understand. I didn't feel the need to type out exactly what I'm doing each day. But to be honest, my routine is evolving every time I go out. I set goals, and when I reach them, I up the goals in some way, either by increasing difficulty/weight, or reps/miles/routes, etc.

If I look over the last 19 years of my climbing, there is a common theme: I train really hard, get strong, and then typically get injured. Lots of random injuries. hamstring, back, hip, finger, etc. So my main focus is to build a huge base, vary my workouts between bouldering, lots of endurance routes with no rest, running, and some weight lifting. I have no desire to push my limits in any single area (except endurance) until I'm out on my projects. I set goals, but if I feel that I'm in risk of overdoing it to the point of injury, I back off. I've decided that if I am going to get injured it'll be on my projects, not while training aka 'fun climbing'. The other big part of my 'training' is diet. I've made dramatic changes in my diet. So a lot of this is just to maintain my current power levels, while boosting endurance and then just wait until the reduction in body mass causes me to walk up climbs with ease. It's already beginning to happen. I think the other aspect of this which is very relevant to the type of 'training' I'm doing is that I boulder WAY better than I climb, so if I don't gain an ounce of power, and just focus on endurance I can easily see myself upping my sport climbing by at least 4 letter grades.

I'm just curious. If you were going to run a marathon, and you went running prior to said marathon, would that be called training? Or fun running?

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by fray21 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:04 am

Deliberate planning and practice is one side of the equation. The other side is practicing the right things in a smart and efficient way.

I plan out every workout and trip months in advance. I've been deliberate about practicing for the last five years, but I continue to get smarter and more efficient with how I spend/plan the practice time.

I am a big fan of Mr. Odubs blog as well.

Shamis, It sounds like you may need to work on the “smarts” to stay off the injured side? I don't know you or your history, so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I would say running just to run with no goal in place is fun running, that's what I do. I'm not sure why it dosn't always feel fun?

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by chriss » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:32 am

Shamis wrote: If I look over the last 19 years of my climbing, there is a common theme: I train really hard, get strong, and then typically get injured. Lots of random injuries. hamstring, back, hip, finger, etc. So my main focus is to build a huge base, vary my workouts between bouldering, lots of endurance routes with no rest, running, and some weight lifting. I have no desire to push my limits in any single area (except endurance) until I'm out on my projects.

I'm just curious. If you were going to run a marathon, and you went running prior to said marathon, would that be called training? Or fun running?
Maybe the correct word is maintaining? In terms of the running, it depends. From my very limited marathon experience every run was planned 15ish weeks out in terms of weekly mileage, long runs, up tempo days, etc. I would call that training. And yes, more measurables would make it look more like training!

Not trying to take anything away from your 'training', just trying to get back to pigsteaks original question. There seems to be a big difference between what you are doing - fun gym sessions - and deliberate training that pushes your climbing abilities.


fray21 wrote:Deliberate planning and practice is one side of the equation. The other side is practicing the right things in a smart and efficient way.

I plan out every workout and trip months in advance. I've been deliberate about practicing for the last five years, but I continue to get smarter and more efficient with how I spend/plan the practice time.
This sounds like training, and for me this is fun. I map out my workout cycles months in advance and really enjoy the training process. Not for everyone though.

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Rollo » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:54 am

krampus wrote:accidental practice is more fun, and usually involves climbing
+1
i'm a subscriber
pigsteak wrote:For those who wallow in continual staleness with climbing, why do you accept less than your best?
viewing myself in this lens makes me feel inadequate....i quit.
And on the third day, God created the Red River Gorge(by conjecture), and he saw that it was good.

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by Shamis » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:09 am

Planning months in advance is difficult when you're making exponential gains that are tough to gauge in advance.

Kipp, I've climbed with you enough to know what you need to work on. Stop worrying about 'practice' and just go build a power endurance bouldering program. The cycle that worked for me was to select 4-5 warmup problems, and then start working harder stuff. Each session, add the harder stuff into your circuit after you send them. Eventually you get to the point where you're doing a 15-20 problem circuit followed by a few attempts on your next problem to add to the circuit. Reset the program when problems change at the wall/gym that you're at. Each cycle you'll get stronger. Don't go to the bouldering gym and hop on whatever looks good. Force yourself to do the warmups, force a progression, and stay off the deadpoints and dynos that will destroy your shoulder. The hard problems you work into the program should be more body tension style problems, and less of the awkward throw/lunge/dyno stuff that you are typically drawn to.

You're also big and meaty like me so you need a proper diet to slim down if you really want to break into higher grades. The harder moves will feel easier.

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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by the lurkist » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:15 am

I think you can apply a systematic approach to climbing. I've tried intermittently with some success. Odub is definitely doing it with success.
On the other hand, looking at young guys and girls that start climbing and ascend the grades in short order- what are they doing? I don't get the sense they are systematically training. I think what they do is fall in love with the idea of climbing, and do nothing else. What allows them to excel is an organic approach and the accompanying conditions and the environment they do it in. Namely, they have lots of free time, they are approaching or at their peak level of testosterone and ability to recover, the gyms environment has facilitated approaching climbing recreation-ally as an activity that is like effective training, and the peer expectation for young climbers is that you will be able to climb at least 5.13 and you are just becoming note worthy when you climb 5.14.
So basically the conditions are right to become a bad ass. Fertile soil to grow young shredders in.
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Re: Deliberate Practice

Post by toad857 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:38 am

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